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| Old Man Arthur
Well said but you are leaving out technological advances. There is no question in my mind that amps today are better than yesteryears but with guitars, it's more debatable. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | I was just commenting that you can get a really nice guitar for really cheap nowadays.
And as the header sometimes sez:
Random quote: "Believe me when I say that some of the most amazing music in history was made on equipment that's not as good as what you own right now." - Jol Dantzig
I have a guitar that will imitate 26 different guitar sounds... including banjo and sitar.
And I have an iDea preamp that I can drop-in and it will play along with me and record.
But when we are comparing present prices to the 70's....
We need to add a zero to those old prices to get proper perspective.
When a Balladeer sold for $300, that was two months rent...
Or 6 weeks wages for a full-time dishwasher.
Also... The people buying that $299 Celebrity aren't complaining that the price is too low.
Edited by Old Man Arthur 2013-09-12 4:12 PM
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| Old Man Arthur
I'm pretty sure you pinpointed the cost of living factor in a post describing renting apartments then vs. now and that analogy was spot on but you can't make the same analogy about a computer from that era with any credibility. A 486DX-33Mhz computer cost about $5K in 1986 and the build quality was amazing back then but as technology advances, more gets done with less. If you're looking for a nostalgic sound, I get the desire for older gear but pickups are wound better, shielding is patterned better and build tolerances are generally tighter today than yesteryear and that generally results in quieter and bigger sounding gear. What happens in most cases is that an artist develops a sound on a given guitar and amp that people want to imitate but don't have the time or knowledge to find with their own gear so the artist gives up the amp/guitar settings after signing an endorsement deal and everybody's happy until the next interesting sound comes along. Ultimately, a guitar is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it, just like any other commodity and if gold can go up and down, so can guitars. |
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Location: NJ | there are some good imports.
you usually have to play 2dz of the same guitar to find them |
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Location: Da Windy City | Brad Durasa - 2013-09-12 10:57 AM You've put forth a lot of "perspective" in just 5 posts. If I may ask, what's your background? Hobbyist? Paid to play professional? Open mic guy? Industy insider? You can ask, but I feel no obligation whatsoever to answer you. I'm not here to apply for a job. It's a discussion forum and my ideas stand 100% on merit, not 'association'. If your only counter-credential is that you've been a member longer and have more posts, that means absolutely nothing and anyone who thinks it does is dumber than a dried out corn cob. For the sake of argument, assume I'm a janitor. You should be worrying why a janitor is seeing all this stuff that you apparently cannot see, even after a decade on an internet forum discussing the issue with thousands and thousands of posts.
And for whatever it's worth, yes, you were definitely going headlong into corksniffer territory with "A $299 guitar will always be a $299 guitar". The implication was crystal clear, it's a standard refrain... and it's embarassingly mindless. Don't worry, though. There's plenty of people who believe the same stuff, willing to stand right behind you and shout praise-be-hallelujah, insist that I'M A LAWYER OR A TROLL OR A POLITICIAN! but ultimately, at the end of the day, it boils down to who among us has the better position. Internet forum post volume does absolutely nothing to enrich that.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-12 5:14 PM
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Location: Da Windy City | Waskel@Work - 2013-09-12 11:29 AM
Politician? Lawyer? Marketing Puke? Troll?
Oops. Did I type that out loud?
You typed words that implied someone just burst your bubble and you really have nothing substantive to say in retort so instead, you just flailed around and made dumb guesses in a fit of emotional tantrum. Basically, you embarrassed yourself.
Wait, did I say that out loud?
Believers' are what they are. |
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Location: Da Windy City | arthurseery - 2013-09-12 12:32 PM
I remember when Ovations were somewhat pricey, new.
Well, those days are here again as far as USA Models are concerned.
Also, prices are relative to the economy of the time.
Look at some old prices... http://www.ovationfanclub.com/files/prices.asp
Then remember that in 1971 you could rent a House for $150/mo, minimum wage was $1.60/hr.
When you look at it that way, $300 ain't that cheap.
Absolutely true. That's kind of what I was saying, without bothering to note inflation. Also, unlike most other guitars from the same era, they've depreciated terribly relative to what they originally cost (factored in for inflation). Right now, in my opinion, is a helluva time to be a vintage Ovation fan since you can get fantastic instruments for dirt cheap. Whether they enjoy a renaissance among 'collectors' is yet to be seen but for musicians who like Ovations, it's like manna from heaven.
The big difference between then and now being, there wasn't a 'co-branded' import alternative for 1/8th the cost back then, nor was there an aftermarket full of used instruments on the cheap, creating a pretty massive downward pressure on new manufacturing. If you wanted an Ovation back then, you had to go all in at Mom and Pop Music and buy the real deal. Now, that totally isn't the case.
This creates an ideological schism between people who pay the premium and those who don't. Those who do usually do so on the basis of their having magic ears (that they're unwilling to actually bet on, but they will insist they have them) or simply being so affluent that they have the disposable income to 'buy the good stiff' and everyone else is just beneath them, which is, ya know. Basically the bedrock basis for all 'high end' marketing strategy. Ego cases only understand price, not value.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-12 5:12 PM
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Location: closely held secret | Guitar - 2013-09-12 2:51 PM
Waskel@Work - 2013-09-12 11:29 AM
Politician? Lawyer? Marketing Puke? Troll?
Oops. Did I type that out loud?
You typed words that implied someone just burst your bubble and you really have nothing substantive to say in retort so instead, you just flailed around and made dumb guesses in a fit of emotional tantrum. Basically, you embarrassed yourself.
Wait, did I say that out loud?
Believers' are what they are.
Oh, ouch. Please, don't hit me again.
My bubble's just fine, thanks. By all means, continue to impress us with your perceptive insights concerning the guitars we've been discussing here for the last ten years. I'm sure there's something we missed.
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Location: Da Windy City | Waskel@Work - 2013-09-12 5:13 PM
I'm sure there's something we missed.
Seems to be the case.
Also, every internet forum has it's resident sideline monkey whose only role is to occasionally enter the conversation by flinging poo.
So far, that's been you. Do you have *anything* of substance to say, or is it just all quips and sentence fragments? If so, allow me to offer you this banana in hopes that you'll scurry back up your tree and leave this one to the grown-ups.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-12 5:19 PM
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | You know, I have always defended the Celebrity and Applause guitars because I think that for the price, you can't find a better starter guitar. But if you compare the sound to a USA-made Ovation, they don't measure up. As a dealer, I have had both in my shop at the same time, and have had plenty of time to make the comparison. Each time a customer comes in looking for a guitar, I show them what I have in their price range. And there have been many times when a person with a "celebrity wallet" has put a USA Ovation on layaway because they'd rather wait, and get the better sounding (and better made) guitar. |
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Location: Da Windy City | Also, just to head off any hysterics, it's worth noting that I'm a huge Ovie fan, my #'s 1, 2 and 3 are all Ovations and I endure withering mocking from my other fingerstyle friends because of it.
The only reason I think I got 'hostility' from a few folks is because they either failed to comprehend what I had written or were shocked that someone was able to articulate a cogent and insightful opinion without first having spent a decade on this forum drinking kool-aid.
We're all Ovation fans here, for christs sake we're a dwindling breed, lets not fight when no fighting is required. |
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Location: Da Windy City | CanterburyStrings - 2013-09-12 5:21 PM
You know, I have always defended the Celebrity and Applause guitars because I think that for the price, you can't find a better starter guitar. But if you compare the sound to a USA-made Ovation, they don't measure up. As a dealer, I have had both in my shop at the same time, and have had plenty of time to make the comparison. Each time a customer comes in looking for a guitar, I show them what I have in their price range. And there have been many times when a person with a "celebrity wallet" has put a USA Ovation on layaway because they'd rather wait, and get the better sounding (and better made) guitar.
That's probably a totally true anecdote, however I'd propose that instead of formulating any conclusions based on that, you instead take the USA Ovation, two Celebrity Ovations, give them to a musician who you don't know, tell him to make 66 Celebrity/34 USA random sound clips and see if- without knowing what guitar you're hearing to confirm your innate biases- you can 'ear' the USA Ovation by selecting it in randomized sound clips to a degree that exceeds that could be expected with ordinary guesswork.
Plenty of people will insist they can 'ear' differences like Brazilian from East Indian Rosewood, a Mexican from a USA made Stratocaster, a Gibson from an Epiphone Les Paul, some of it gets outright comical like the ones who can 'hear' the difference between a maple and a rosewood fretboard... but of all the people who are just so vocally insistent about this sort of thing when it's free, I've had a real hard time finding one willing come forward with an open wallet and put their money where their mouth is with valid, blind testing criteria in place.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-12 5:35 PM
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Location: Tennessee | Ummm ... Guitar ... I realize you're new here so you might not want to make assinine assumptions about people of which you know nothing about. Certain people have formulated their conclusions through decades of intimate experience with the Ovation line of guitars. Who knows, some of these people may have even built some of your treasured Ovations. You might be amazed at their knowledge and insight. This is not your average board of opinionated know-nothings. Just sayin'. |
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Location: closely held secret | Guitar,
I neither failed to comprehend what you wrote ('buy the good stiff' gave me some insight into your predilections), nor was I shocked at your articulation.
I was merely having fun building on Brad's list. If you knew anything about this board, you would know it was actually built on members (Brad included) who not only made remarks like that but could dish it right back without getting their feelings hurt. Those people are still my friends.
You in fact were the one who resorted to name calling, insults and character denigration. Maybe you need to grow a thicker skin.
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Location: south east Michigan | Guitar,
So... you want to keep your credentials close to your vest.
Fair enough.
I am amazed by how much, just from my few brief posts, you have been able to deduce about me. This may come to a surprise to OFC members but apparently I'm "dumber than a dried out corn cob." ... a "corksniffer"..."embarassingly mindless" ..and some sort of cultist like "Believer" .... You have to be one of the most insightful janitors I've ever run across.
Edited by Slipkid 2013-09-12 6:20 PM
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Location: Da Windy City | Waskel@Work - 2013-09-12 5:54 PM
If you knew anything about this board, you would know it was actually built on members (Brad included) who not only made remarks like that but could dish it right back without getting their feelings hurt. Those people are still my friends. You in fact were the one who resorted to name calling, insults and character denigration. Maybe you need to grow a thicker skin.
Gotcha 
I'm all for a bit of raucous discussion. No more name calling from this end, skin thickened up.
I've lurked here for a couple years now, always enjoyed reading (mostly the other forums) and still do.
I'm a pretty passionate rationalist/objectivist type and can get a bit breathless when confronting superstition or irrational beliefs. Ovations are an instrument that absolutely, very credibly has a tone that is quite distinct from wood-bodied instruments. If I proposed a bet that someone couldn't distinguish an Ovation from a Martin in a sound test, I'd have people lined up around the block to take that bet. If someone proposed it to me, I'd snap-call and take that bet.
The interesting part is when you propose there's essentially little to no difference between certain US made instruments and their Asian counterparts, you get the same amount of interest, the same amount of discussion, but for whatever reason, nobody seems willing to stand in that line with their wallet open and take that bet.
Instrument manufacturing economics are very different today with fully mature production facilities in Asia compared to, say, the 1980s, when it was basically just Japan making guitars 120% better for 60% the cost. All the metrics have changed. Specs have been changed to find equilibrium with cost and demand. It's a brave new world.
In this new world of odd production economics- that impacts everything from guitars to tractors to bedsheets- some of the simplifying ideologies of old ("ya get what ye' pay fer!" or "them Orientals make JUNK! compared to what we got here in the USA!") don't hold up.
I'm old enough to remember when we mocked the Japanese for daring to think they could make a guitar or build a car as well as we could.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-12 6:30 PM
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Location: Da Windy City | Brad Durasa - 2013-09-12 6:19 PM
Guitar,
So... you want to keep your credentials close to your vest.
Fair enough.
I am amazed by how much, just from my few brief posts, you have been able to deduce about me. This may come to a surprise to OFC members but apparently I'm "dumber than a dried out corn cob." ... a "corksniffer"..."embarassingly mindless" ..and some sort of cultist like "Believer" .... You have to be one of the most insightful janitors I've ever run across.
No, I haven't made those deductions about you personally. Just a bit of 'high spirited conversation'.
I'm sure we're all swell guys here, no offense intended, apologies for any offense taken.
I think what's most important is that we not forget we are all on the same side as Ovation fans...
...or, wait. Maybe we aren't all on the same side, since we're probably bidding against each other on those auctions 
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-12 6:29 PM
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | Guitar, I challenge YOU to take your USA Ovation into a Guitar Center, and have random customers listen to you play it, and then a Celebrity, without them looking. Maybe sit behind a screen so they can't see you. Maybe put a bag over the headstock. I GUARANTEE they will be able to tell the difference. |
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Location: Denver, CO | I think Beal's point is significant, and has been completely trampled on here; while we share an emotional bond with the product, from a corporate perspective, the product is simply a means to support the brand. For what it's worth, as a relative guitar neophyte, I have to say there is a noticeable gap in quality between the Celebritys, the new Asian Ovations, and the USA made guitars. I would have never spent my own hard-earned cash on a Celebrity, although I have handled several. But when I first held a USA-made Ovation I was immediately impressed, and I have continued to be impressed with them, tone, volume, fit-and-finish, etc. I for one am at least a little happy with Ovation's market position and perception, because it means that a working-class slob like myself, for less than $1000 can own and play an instrument comparable (in my, as well as many others' opinions) to anything out there costing 3-5 times as much. I could not care less what brand name is on my instrument, and the aesthetics that some find strange kind of fit my style anyway. No cork-sniffing going on over here! |
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Location: Da Windy City | CanterburyStrings - 2013-09-12 6:30 PM
Guitar, I challenge YOU to take your USA Ovation into a Guitar Center, and have random customers listen to you play it, and then a Celebrity, without them looking. Maybe sit behind a screen so they can't see you. Maybe put a bag over the headstock. I GUARANTEE they will be able to tell the difference.
So then if I proposed a $10,000 bet, you'd be willing to take it?
Not making coinflip 50/50 guesses between two instruments and a guy behind a screen, but that you could 'ear' a US Ovation from an array of sound clips involving three guitars, two imports and one US?
That you could 'hear the quality' like your customers do?
Just to reiterate, I'm the one taking the negative position- that tone-ghosts do not exist. The burden is not on me to demonstrate what does not exist (or, prove a negative) It's up to those who believe the affirmative to prove what does exist, using valid criteria.
Anyone with an ounce of scientific literacy can distinguish 'valid testing criteria' from 'invalid testing criteria' so there's little argument there.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-12 6:38 PM
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Location: south east Michigan | Members here have put together those blind tests.... at least a couple times.
I understand that you are a hard assed "passionate rationalist/objectivist type" so I'm sure it won't phase you when I say that I'm slightly offended by the way you found me to hold "superstition & irrational beliefs"
I stand by my opinion that a $299 Ovation... even with the marvels of modern manufacturing, represents a new low in not only price point, but quality.
I have to say that .... "In the year 2013, a $299 instrument often has no appreciable, practical difference from it's $3000 counterpart" ... is the most foolish post to be made here since the days of Glenn Hess.
Edited by Slipkid 2013-09-12 6:46 PM
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | Yep. I'm thinking you are either trolling for an argument or perhaps your hearing isn't very good. I mean really, do you think EVERYONE (my customers included) is an "Ovation snob"? Even my 12-year-old student who doesn't know a Martin from a Samick, but she knows what sounds good to her? Or other BEGINNERS who know nothing about guitars, but have TRIED both USA and imported Ovations and, as I said, decided they liked the SOUND of the USA's well enough to put off buying what they could afford, just so they could get "that sound"? I'm serious, if you can't tell the difference, you either have bad ears, or old dead strings on your guitars, or maybe (because each piece of wood has a different sound), you just happened to buy a couple of "dogs". (Even Ovation occasionally made a few.)
Why don't you go out and buy an A-braced Legend, a 1581 Adamas, a Celebrity, and an Applause, then make that clip. Two guitars made in the USA and two made overseas. We'll all be waiting to vote on what we think sounds better. |
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Location: south east Michigan | okay.. if you say so. |
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Location: Da Windy City | Brad Durasa - 2013-09-12 6:45 PM
Members here have put together those blind tests.... at least a couple times.
I understand that you are a hard assed "passionate rationalist/objectivist type" so I'm sure it won't phase you when I say that I'm slightly offended by the way you found me to hold "superstition & irrational beliefs"
I stand by my opinion that a $299 Ovation... even with the marvels of modern manufacturing, represents a new low in not only price point, but quality.
I have to say that .... "In the year 2013, a $299 instrument often has no appreciable, practical difference from it's $3000 counterpart" ... is the most foolish post to be made here since the days of Glenn Hess.
So, when you say "stand by my opinion" are you the guy willing to step up and take the bet?
Because I'm willing to stand by my opinion AND wager that it's correct.
Or are you the guy who will belabor what we've already been over and ultimately, desist from 'standing by your opinion' when your 'opinion' costs more than free internet posts?
Of course believers are 'offended' when someone comes along to point out that their belief system is bullshit. Their book of excuses is as standard and predictable as the rising sun. The interesting quirk with this particular case, though, is that unlike bigfoot or angels, there's a dead simple way to demonstrate, once and for all, if their beliefs are valid.
James Randi has had the 'Randi Challenge" for years now- I think it's actually up to a million bucks- for anyone who can demonstrate supernatural phenomenon under valid controls. Naturally, the believers just hate-hate-hate his guts, I'm sure they call him a 'troll' yet there he stands, big check in hand and not a damn one has been willing to take it from him. Only the most delusional even bother trying, inevitably crashing and burning, embarrassing themselves and further debasing their belief structure in a big way.
You think that statement is one of the most ridiculous things you've ever heard?
Than I take it you're my man; surely, you're the one to step up, take the bet (since it's just such an absurd assertion and naturally, you'll have no problem) and demonstrate how wrong I am.
Right?
Or, will you just dance around and post excuses?
A common, safe path to get your head out of the logical mousetrap is the old "HRUMPH! You're just a TROLL! I'm not talking to you anymore!"
But if you're my man, shoot me a private message and we can bang out the details.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-12 7:15 PM
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so sad
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