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| I understand that, Al. I run a forum of my own. My goal has always been to teach new forum members, not rip them a new one. It may have been better for you to simply ask me where I got my info, than accuse me a lying about it. From my computer screen, it certainly felt that you WERE trying to argue with me and exhibit superiority all at the same time. I am glad to read that was not the case. Given you have a business that includes Ovations, I'm sure you need to insure you don't come across as an SOB in a forum that many people might learn about those guitars.
I will try to be more clear in any future posts, when what I say may be taken the wrong way. I can only hope others will give me the slack to make it worth my time to even ask questions.
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Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | I may be sticking my nose in where it's neither needed nor wanted, but I think John has withstood some pretty withering retorts since he showed up here asking questions. Yes, he bristled a bit, but he was not the only one. He is asking some tough, but pertinenet questions, and there is no need to get defensive. If he (or any other newbie for that matter) is misinformed, then let's bring them up to speed with a bit more courtesy and a bit less "Who the @#% told you a stupid thing like that?!"
I feel partly responsible because I invited him here when he was asking questions about purchasing an Ovation on the AGF.
I'm honestly not trying to hog the soap box here, but I have been quite uncomfortable reading around the OFC this past week. Can we please take a step back and get back to "Great Guitars -- Great People -- Great Fun!"?
(Sorry, couldn't resist a calendar plug there. I made a couple of revisions based on the pros' recommendations, and it officially started the "publishing" process this week.  ) |
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Location: NJ | JohnW63 - 2012-10-20 5:36 PM
I understand that, Al. I run a forum of my own. My goal has always been to teach new forum members, not rip them a new one. It may have been better for you to simply ask me where I got my info, than accuse me a lying about it. From my computer screen, it certainly felt that you WERE trying to argue with me and exhibit superiority all at the same time. I am glad to read that was not the case. Given you have a business that includes Ovations, I'm sure you need to insure you don't come across as an SOB in a forum that many people might learn about those guitars.
I will try to be more clear in any future posts, when what I say may be taken the wrong way. I can only hope others will give me the slack to make it worth my time to even ask questions.
I need not insure anything for you.
if you want to participate in the forum you play by the rules or get banned
over the years I have booted several people. your troll like nature is making me issue you a formal warning. |
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| And once again, I am accused of being a troll. Be honest Al. What posts or statements have I made that really are troll like ?
I suggested that not everything Ovation has tried over the last 20 or so years have been big innovations. I would have liked to discuss with StoneBobbo the details of each and debate whether they were evolutions of previous ideas, methods to fix perceived short comings or actual innovations that improved the brand, but, cries of " The most ignorant post EVER ..." came well before any thing else.
I suggested that different tone woods could be used in the more affordable guitars in the same thread, and you called that something like, " The sort of idiotic suggestion you were hoping not to get and that it would NEVER happen. ".
In this thread, I shared information directly from Ovation , which I had no reason to disbelieve, and you quickly said that, " I was speaking out of my arse. " .
All my other posts were direct questions about specific guitars, strings, ect. At no point did I name call, claim that Ovations sucked, or any other inflammatory statements with the intent to get everyone pissed off. THAT is what a forum troll does. Maybe you have a different definition. I have played by the rules, Al, however, given the forum terms of service page does not work, it does make it more difficult to quote chapter and verse. If there was some rule that said you can not defend your points of view when others take issue with them, that would be a unique one to me.
So, if this is a formal warning, I would at least like to know what rule I have broken that gives me " a troll like nature ". I would be difficult to not break that rule again, if I am unaware what it says.
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Location: south east Michigan | John... Being that you handle a forum yourself I'm sure you see the logic of taking your discussion with Al to E-mail.
That is... unless you like to do this type of thing out in the open.
Which in most circles, would seem rather troll-like. |
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Location: Northwest Arkansas | My two cents worth. I don't want to sound like a non-member, but if Ovation wants to make a profit they have to sell guitars. They don't sell used American ones. I got a Custom Legend for less than half price a few months back. It's KOREAN! I love the neck. It plays better than my D-35 Martin. Simply because you can play past the 7th fret. Every single person who's seen it wants to play it and I truly believe I have made more than my share of sales(I don't work anywhere) for upper-echelon Ovations. They're new so Ovation makes the money. Not some brick and mortar store. No disrespect. If KMC is going to make money and stay in business, they need to sell guitars. NOT used American ones. I like them as well as the next guy. You buy what they have for sale. IF there is a problem Ovation will fix it. I've dealt with them several times before. Best guys in the world. We all have a vested interest in Ovation. The only ones for sale are Korean or Custom-made(Al Dimeola/Melissa Etheridge/ Kaki King). A man buys what he can afford. I must have been lucky. I got a great Korean. I've been playing 34 years and I play on the average 3 or 4 hours a day. So I know what a great guitar is. If your "import" Ovation doesn't come up to spec. Call the company. I bet they'll fix the problem. If it deserves attention. I'll buy what they sell and what I can afford. That's capitalism at it's finest. Oh, my Japanese Stratocaster rocks. I traded an American Standard with all the bells and whistles for it. I could sell it to any one of 10 people tomorrow. Great guitar.
Edited by AdamasW597 2012-10-21 9:16 PM
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Location: NJ | JohnW63 - 2012-10-21 3:00 PM
So, if this is a formal warning, I would at least like to know what rule I have broken that gives me " a troll like nature ". I would be difficult to not break that rule again, if I am unaware what it says.
don't piss off the host
bye bye |
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Location: Tennessee | JohnW63 - 2012-10-21 1:00 PM Be honesT Al. I suggested that not everything Ovation has tried over the last 20 or so years have been big innovations. I would have liked to discuss with StoneBobbo the details of each and debate whether they were evolutions of previous ideas, methods to fix perceived short comings or actual innovations that improved the brand, but, cries of " The most ignorant post EVER ..." came well before any thing else. Let ME be honest. You started by proclaiming that Ovation has done nothing new in 20 years. Calling you ignorant (it's is not a dirty word ... go look it up) was a deliberate use of the word ... and I tried to educate you about the many new things Ovation has developed over that time. You responded by dismissing virtually everything on the list, calling me names, and doubling down on your negative assault on Ovation (this is the Ovation FAN club). That, sir, is troll-like behavior. |
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Location: Flahdaw | I was once called a "troll" on the AGF for questioning why guys that couldn't play very well were routinely buying $5000 to $10,000 guitars. I really felt it was a legitimate question, and I was looking for explanations as to why they wouldn't wait until they got reasonably good to invest THAT kind of money.
Well Holy Crap...you'd think I had pooped on the Pope. I really started a firestorm. I tried a couple of posts trying to explain my position, but quickly saw it wasn't going to help matters. So I did the reasonable thing.... I BACKED OFF and let things settle down. I didn't post again for a few months and all was fine. Others would have kept pressing their point. |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | darkbarguitar - 2012-10-22 11:10 AM I was once called a "troll" on the AGF for questioning why guys that couldn't play very well were routinely buying $5000 to $10,000 guitars. While I personally think this is an interesting question, I can also understand why those to whom it might apply may find it somewhat offensive, even if that was never the intent of the questioner. Some people might very well read into the question an underlying bias that somebody who cannot play very well is not entitled to spend $5,000 to $10,000 on a guitar. The reason for the bias is likely rooted in the definition of value. For the non-player, value is probably based on rarity, collector appeal, or the like. I would be willing to bet that the majority of Ferrari owners possess skills nowhere close to those required to operate these vehicles at the upper limit of their capabilities. I'm sure it applies to many other things as well. Look at all the soccer moms driving big Jeep SUVs. Most of these vehicles have never seen a dirt road, let alone a rocky streambed where their off-road capabilities really shine. If a willing buyer has the money to buy a $10,000 guitar, more power to them. I hope I run into one if and when I should ever be so lucky as to be selling a guitar in that range. This is one of benefits of a free market economy. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Yes, eventually that argument came out, and I saw the logic in it. But by then I was already a pariah so I just slowly backed away, eyes alert, hands hovering over the butt of my six shooter, til I could make it out the saloon doors.... |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | It takes awhile for people to figure out whether someone who is posting is sincere, trying to jerk a chain or is just a PITA. Some people are abrasive in writing, but not in person and vice versa. I wouldn't have a job if it wasn't for controversy, so it probably doesn't bother me as much as some.
After that piece of worthless pontificating, I almost forgot what I wanted to respond to and that was AdamasW597. I don't think people here were trying to say that you must have been lucky to get a great Korean Ovation. Most Ovation fans believe that the USA made ones are better. New ones may be out of the price range for many people and they may be better than most people need. What's important is that someone that buys an Ovation is happy with the purchase. If that Korean guitar makes you think that you would like a new USA model when your circumstances permit, that's good for Ovation. If you're perfectly happy with what you have, at least Ovation made one sale and that's good for Ovation. Win-win. Some people want to keep all the jobs in the US, but that just hasn't worked for most industries. As the labor costs increase to the levels of US workers, as they have, even in China, maybe the outsourcing will stop. I just hope we have skilled labor here when that happens. |
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| StoneBobbo,
There is no need to restart the debate we had, in this thread. We can certainly discuss it in a new one, if you wish, or as someone suggested, take the debate off line and use PMs. That being said, I don't recall calling you anything more than a fanboy. I don't know what you mean by "doubling down on negativity". I think the major problem was that while you gave me a list of your innovations I disagreed with that list. That's not trolling. That's a disagreement. As I said, I would more than willing to discuss the merits of each and every one of those items, if it can be done with less accusations.
Al,
If a poster can be booted simply because they type something that annoys you, it seems a bit like a roulette wheel of chance. I read, "The purpose of this site is to inform, educate, communicate and share knowledge of Ovation guitars. ". That's why I registered. |
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Location: Tennessee | Click |
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Location: Flahdaw | I'm confused... |
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Location: Michigan | is it getting warm in this room or is it me  GWB |
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Tick, tick, tick...
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Location: Northwest Arkansas | Mark. I own an American. But at the price point of some guitars. Koreans will sell. If they're messed up, QC will have to get better. OR people will quit buying the product. I love American. But, there are only 3 affordable ones. The Koreans are, to me, a valid alternative. That's my opinion. It gets me in trouble though. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Mike, if your opinion gets you in trouble, then I will be, too, because I agree with everything you said. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | boltonb - 2012-10-22 10:05 AM
darkbarguitar - 2012-10-22 11:10 AM I was once called a "troll" on the AGF for questioning why guys that couldn't play very well were routinely buying $5000 to $10,000 guitars. While I personally think this is an interesting question, I can also understand why those to whom it might apply may find it somewhat offensive, even if that was never the intent of the questioner. Some people might very well read into the question an underlying bias that somebody who cannot play very well is not entitled to spend $5,000 to $10,000 on a guitar. The reason for the bias is likely rooted in the definition of value. For the non-player, value is probably based on rarity, collector appeal, or the like. I would be willing to bet that the majority of Ferrari owners possess skills nowhere close to those required to operate these vehicles at the upper limit of their capabilities. I'm sure it applies to many other things as well. Look at all the soccer moms driving big Jeep SUVs. Most of these vehicles have never seen a dirt road, let alone a rocky streambed where their off-road capabilities really shine. If a willing buyer has the money to buy a $10,000 guitar, more power to them. I hope I run into one if and when I should ever be so lucky as to be selling a guitar in that range. This is one of benefits of a free market economy.
This is an interesting aspect... maybe worthy of a new thread... |
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Location: NJ | JohnW63 - 2012-10-22 5:34 PM
StoneBobbo,
There is no need to restart the debate we had, in this thread. We can certainly discuss it in a new one, if you wish, or as someone suggested, take the debate off line and use PMs. That being said, I don't recall calling you anything more than a fanboy. I don't know what you mean by "doubling down on negativity". I think the major problem was that while you gave me a list of your innovations I disagreed with that list. That's not trolling. That's a disagreement. As I said, I would more than willing to discuss the merits of each and every one of those items, if it can be done with less accusations.
Al,
If a poster can be booted simply because they type something that annoys you, it seems a bit like a roulette wheel of chance. I read, "The purpose of this site is to inform, educate, communicate and share knowledge of Ovation guitars. ". That's why I registered.
bye bye |
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Location: Fort Worth, TX | alpep - 2012-10-23 6:32 AM
bye bye
So, are we to gather he got booted from this comment? |
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Location: Miami | patchmcg - 2012-10-20 7:44 PM
I may be sticking my nose in where it's neither needed nor wanted, but I think John has withstood some pretty withering retorts since he showed up here asking questions. Yes, he bristled a bit, but he was not the only one.
+1 (Thanks, Patch.)
As for the original post, the off shore TX's sound cheaper than the US T's NOT because of craftsmanship but because of the materials, as OMA observed in his "heresy" thread. You cannot compare the thicker spruce top (literally twice as thick) and rosewood tinted fretboard with a thinner spruce top (ie better vibration) and ebony fretboard. The materials used offshore were cheaper. And as I stated elsewhere, plugged in it's not too big of a difference. Unplugged, you can hear it and feel it. It's not just a perception of US vs. Offshore. |
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| Wouldn't it also be fair to say that the player makes a hell of a lot more of a difference than the guitar itself? I've heard some amazing players make a $100 Squier just sing and some pretty poor (maybe "undeveloped" is the better term) players with $5000 Martins truly embarrass themselves. I guess what I'm saying here is that while the offshore models may have quality control issues, at the end of the day it's the player and not the instrument.
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Location: Michigan | lets get this party started again , i love a good debate that can get you a vacation .  GWB |
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Off shore guitars
