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Location: Northwest Arkansas | The Bm is called the relative minor to D. It's the 6 chord. The 6th note in the major scale of whatever key you're playing in, is the 6th chord. A-F#m, B-G#m, C-Am and all the way down the line. The key of C is simplest. C-1, D is a 2 or 2 minor, Em is 3, F is 4 and so forth. |
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Location: south east Michigan | Relative minor??? That's my 12 year old nephew.
Bless those who are steeped in music theory.
Me??? I'll just acquire and hoard all the best Ovations I can and let others worry about technique.
Edited by Slipkid 2012-08-22 9:40 AM
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Location: Newington, CT | A couple other cool things I learned just fooling around:
Thing #1: I can figure out how to play just about any song, just by picking out the melody and seeing in what chord the melody notes fit. In this way, I figured out Somewhere over the Rainbow, Memory, Danny Boy, The Carnival is Over (Seekers), Summer Song and, of all things, the basics of Rhapsody on a theme by Paganini, by Rachmaninov. This is easiest for the simpler songs. Those with lots of key and tempo changes require the same technique, but for for each section. In this way, I've made signinficant inroads on Spanish Eyes and Time to Say Goodbye, just by picking out the melody.
Talk about fun practice sessions! You can just sit down anywhere, call a song to mind, hum it a bit, pick out the melody and be WELL on the way to learning a new song!
Thing #2: Many, MANY songs can be played nearly entirely using the Am and Em (at the third fret) chord shapes up and down the fretboard. I figured that out when I was learning (using the above stated method) "the Carnival is Over," a portion of it reminded me of "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" and started me learning that one. Then, a snippet of Somewhere recalled "Memory," (from Cats) a part of which reminded me of the Rachmaninov. After I figured out "Danny Boy", I tested my theory on it. Yep...the same chords up and down the fretboard.
Sweet! I learned all that stuff this year, in successive "ah ha" moments. Talk about fun!
Edited by AlanM 2012-08-22 10:09 AM
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Location: Newington, CT | Have to offer a correction: This is what I typed in a previous post:
"Another such moment just yesterday! Did an Em at the third fret (xx5453 where first "x" is Low E in pitch -- not sure if that's correctly notated), and then moved my index finger down a fret to barre all the second fret (225453) to make a GORGEOUS, exotic-sounding chord that, by sight at least, seems as though it shouldn't work. But, as mentioned above, it's just gorgeous. Well, of course, now I know that particular formation works everywhere else you use that chord shape."
I was wrong. The new chord is 225452 (not: 225453).
Apologies for the misleading post before!
Try the chord. It's just beautiful. It requires some stretching, so if you want to have a feel for what it is on a different part of the freboard, you can try: "003230". It's the same thing, only moved down two frets. Beautiful! Enjoy! 
Edited by AlanM 2012-08-22 10:20 AM
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | aminer2000 - 2012-08-22 10:18 AM If you want to have a feel for what it is on a different part of the freboard, you can try: "003230". It's the same thing, only moved down two frets. Beautiful! Enjoy! There are some fancy names for this chord according jguitar.com (see below), and it is a chord I use in Classical Gas just before the end of the turnaround between verses. | A5add#5add11 | A 5th Add Sharp 5th Add 11th | | Asus4#5add12 | A Suspended 4th Sharp 5th Add 12th | | Asus4#5add5 | A Suspended 4th Sharp 5th Add 5th | | E7b9sus4/A | E/A 7th Flat 9th Suspended 4th |
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Location: Newington, CT | I'm 'fraid I'll be forever ignorant of how these chords get named! I'd have figured that the 225452 chord would be an E something or other, and the 003230 one would be a D# something or other.
Edited by AlanM 2012-08-22 11:55 AM
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Location: Chicago | The last few posts offer some fantastic insights (thanks!) Who says that jazzers have a monopoly on chord substitution? And the analogy between soloing and reciting poetry is remarkable. |
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Location: Location Location Location | I guess one of the coolest things I learned is the b5 substitution. In a II V I Progression, such as Dm7 G7 Cmaj7, G7 is the V. You'd go to the 5th of G, which is D. So, flat 5 would be Db7. The cool thing about it is that the Db7 just gives a slightly different sound to the progression. So instead of playing Dm7 G7 Cmaj7, you can alter the sound by now playing Dm7 Db7 Cmaj7. The reason it works so well is that the G7 and the Db7 have two notes in common, F & B.
Edited by GaryB 2012-08-27 1:36 PM
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Location: Newington, CT | Gary: Could you please expand on this a bit? It sounds really cool, but I'm not sure (1) what a II V I progression is, (is, for example: "C-G-B" a "II V I" progression?) and (2) what calculation you do to make the substitution you describe for all other II V I progressions?
I guess I'm just not sure how you concluded: The 5th of G is D, therefore flat 5 would be Db7.
I apologize for the ignorance of my question, but as you can tell, I'm not real well versed in theory.
Edited by AlanM 2012-08-27 2:01 PM
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Location: Location Location Location | Alan, a II V I is a standard jazz progression. C G B would not be a II V I. The progression is IIminor7 V7 and I Major7. So in your example, it would be
II (Cmin7) V (F7) I (Bbmaj7). II is the second degree of the Bb scale, V is the fifth degree of the Bb scale, and Bb is I. In the scale of G (G A B C D E F#), D is the 5th degree of the scale. The flat 5 of this scale would be Db. So, the formula is that Db7 substitutes for G7. It works because of the common notes to the 2 chords G7 & Db7, which are F & B. It's one of many subsitution rules that work, but a good place to start, because it's a pleasing altered sound, to my ear. There are tons of free information about chord substitution on the internet, and they're great for giving you a different slant on writing and improvising.
As far as figuring other II V I progressions. It's the II scale note, the Vth scale note and the I in every major scale. So in Cmaj ( C D E F G A B), it's Dm7 G7 Cmaj7.. As far as how G7 goes to Db7, you use the scale from G..G A B C D E F#...D is the 5th note..you flat that note for a Db7. Then to figure it out chromatically, go to Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C=Ebm7 Ab7 Dmaj7..and so on through all the major scales. .
Play this progression Dm7 G7 Cmaj7..then play the substitute flat 5...which would be Dm7 Db7 Cmaj7..It's a great sound alteration..also..the Dm7 chromatically to Db7 to Cmaj7 adds to the mix!
Edited by GaryB 2012-08-27 5:35 PM
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Location: Newington, CT | Thanks, Gary! I didn't get it all, but I think you left enough sequences to try in there for me sit down with the ol' OFC II and try to figure out the rest! Let's see what comes of it!
Very much appreciated! |
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Location: Chicago | Alan: If you look at the progressions of standard tunes, you'll find ii-V-I sequences everywhere (or the shorter ii-V). A given key is articulated by progressing thus through the cycle of fourths for two chords (V-I) three chords (ii-V-I), four chords (vi-ii-V-I) and so forth. The point is that, while you are in a given key, the chords are built from the parent scale. The chords relevant to Cmajor are C major, D minor, E minor, Fmajor (#11), G dom 7, A min, B min7b5: the "harmonized" C major scale. Thus, while we are in C, we will be cycling through fourths with either two chords: G7-C, or three Dmin-G7-C, or four Amin-Dmin-G7-C; most standards (think "All the Things you Are" cycle through a key for a bit and then modulate to another and yet another. It's a prerequisite for playing over changes to be able to analyze the relationship of chords in a tune, the shifting tonal centers and to identify appropriate scales and arpeggios that go with each sequence. The chord substitution that Gary mentions is often called a "sub five": the basic idea is that the "core" of, say, a G7 is the tritone between the third and seventh (B and F); it so happens that this same tritone (in reverse) is the core of Db7 as well; hence the Db7 sounds very close to G7 and works nicely as a substitute chord for the dominant seventh. The root movement then is chromatic: D minor, Db 7, C. Theoretically, you discover the relationship between chromatic root movement and the cycle of fourths. Message: "Cycle of Fourths" "ii-V7-I" and "sub five" are essential elements of harmony that are "must-know" for musical literacy and growth! |
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Location: cincinnati, ohio | I know this runs counter to accepted wisdom, but I learned by playing SONGS first and pick up the theory later - IF you want to. It keeps it interesting and fun.I'm not a virtuoso guitar player by any means; I'm a pretty good fingerpicker and a fairly accomplished rhythm strummer. I can throw in some minor lead licks and runs and fills. If I was in CSN&Y, I'd be Crosby, and not Stills or Young.
I'm self-taught. Tablature was a lifesaver. I can haltingly read standard notation at about the level of a first grade reading book - "David and Ann went to the store. 'Look, look!' said David. 'It's our dog, Zip.' Obviously I can't sight read guitar music. You can set down a piece of music in front of my son Rick (who has a Bachelor of Music Performance degree) and he'll play it note for note for you on piano or trumpet, even if he's never seen it before. To me it's just a bunch of ink blotches on a staff. People say, "But you're so limited by not being able to read." I say, '"Bull---t." I'm in good company. Lennon and McCartney couldn't read. James Taylor couldn't read. I usually want to play a song because I've heard it, and tab is fine for that. When I first took up guitar I woodshedded night and day. Within two months I had learned enough and sounded good enough to get out and play live. But I knew I wanted to go farther. I didn't want to be the California Guitar Trio, but I wanted to sound good and play good, and I needed some "A-HA!" moments to unlock some gates
One of my first "A-HA!" moments came when I found Happy Traum's iconic "JAMES TAYLOR" songbook in 1970. I still have it (actually I have all my music books from those days). It had all those great songs from his first Apple album and "Sweet Baby James." Within a few days I was playing "Fire & Rain," "Carolina," "Sweet Baby James," "Steamroller," and all those great tunes like a pro. Not only that, I learned to apply what I learned to other songs as well.
Another "A-HA!" moment came when I found a Jerry Snyder book on fingerpicking. I'd been frustrated in my attempts to learn independent thumb Travis picking, which Gordon Lightfoot does a lot. Jerry had a simple method where you started out playing bass strings with the thumb, then the thumb and one finger, then the thumb and two fingers, then the thumb and three fingers. Shortly after that I learned to co-ordinate chords and melody. It was one of those smack your forehead, "I was making that harder than it had to be!" moments. After that, my playing opened up immensely.
My advice is to keep it fun. Learn to play songs first. Nothing kills the fun of learning guitar like doing nothing but running scales. "You need to learn all your notes and scales and modes; you'll be ready for your first song in about five years."
Not me, babe.
I never did go back and learn scales and theory, although after 43 years I've instinctively picked some up along the way. I may not know what something's called, but I know it works together. Do I regret it? No. Would I be better if I learned theory, etc.? Maybe, but I'm happy where I am. Not everybody has to be a guitar ***.There's a place in the world for the support player. I've been playing out non-stop for 43 years and I can still play as many times a month as I want. It's fun.
Like someone said earlier, "It's called PLAYING the guitar, not WORKING the guitar."
Have fun!
Edited by rick endres 2012-08-31 1:32 PM
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Location: cincinnati, ohio | You can't be serious. Apparently the site is censoring my attempts to put guitar g-o-d in the above post. I edited it twice, and both times g-o-d came out as ***. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Very similar to me, Rick, except that I still have not picked up a book. I was happy to learn later, after watching instructional videos on youtube, that I had naturally learned how to do stuff just by years of trial and error.
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Location: Fort Worth, TX | rick endres - 2012-08-31 1:25 PM
One of my first "A-HA!" moments came when I found Happy Traum's iconic "JAMES TAYLOR" songbook in 1970. I still have it (actually I have all my music books from those days). It had all those great songs from his first Apple album and "Sweet Baby James." Within a few days I was playing "Fire & Rain," "Carolina," "Sweet Baby James," "Steamroller," and all those great tunes like a pro. Not only that, I learned to apply what I learned to other songs as well.
Thanks for mentioning this. I just found a used copy for $.01 on amazon with $3.99 shipping for a $4.00 total. Looking forward to receiving it. |
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Location: cincinnati, ohio | Bob - if you've never used a book for anything, my hat's off to you. You do it all by ear? It sounds amazing.
Dave - so much for the theory that if you hold onto something for 42 years it becomes immensely valuable. :D It's a great book; you'll enjoy it. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Rick- I meant books on technique or playing lessons.....never used those. I've used songbooks if they have the pictures of chords (although I mostly just learn songs by ear. That's why they are almost never the correct way) |
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Location: Fort Worth, TX | darkbarguitar - 2012-09-01 9:50 PM
Rick- I meant books on technique or playing lessons.....never used those. I've used songbooks if they have the pictures of chords (although I mostly just learn songs by ear. That's why they are almost never the correct way)
Give me a break !!! "almost never the correct way". Geeeeesh. I've heard several songs you've covered and wished I could get halfway to your level. I can't stand self deprecation by the way. Get your courage up and start admitting that you have this thing down and that you RULE dude. |
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Location: Flahdaw | I didn't say I sounded horrible, just said I don't play most songs the "correct way." I'm sure there are plenty of people that roll there eyes when I play something thinking "that's NOT how you play that song!" My point was, No lessons, no ah ha moments, just years of goofing around til things started to sound pretty good, then discovering my technique I had developed was pretty much what I would have been taught anyway if I HAD lessons. Ha! |
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Location: Connersville, Indiana | I know this is more than likely going to cause a s@%$ storm of a response. I'm self taught, I can not read music. I noodle around and find a great sounding chord and look it up so I can write it down. I have a saying I have always gone by this idea since I don't read music. If you are taught music theory and how to read music you know what you should and should not do and the limits of how to play the right way, in other words bound by that theory, but if your self taught you do not know these limitations and you mess around and find a chord that sounds good to you, and you are not bound by those theories then you can fly out side the box. Especially when writing songs. There has been a few times I have been told, like at church from the organ player, You can't use that chord, it does not fit. But in my own music I do use the chords I have chosen and it works, at least for me. It may not be the correct chord in a certain progression but it seems to work and it sounded good. Now that I'm old I really wish I studied music theory and to be able to read music, so I could go that much farther. Hell I can hardly see all the dots on a music page, let alone read them LOL.
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | All of you guys talking about picking up some theory along the way? I have an expression I picked up from my friend Jay that I use with students - "You already know it, you just don't know you know it."
That being siad, I have to disagree that knowing theory stifles your creativity. If I know a chord "doesn't belong" there, I still use it anyway. And actually, there really ARE no chords that don't belong ANYWHERE. Listen, I mean really LISTEN to some classical guitar pieces and you'll hear what I mean. Some of these pieces have key changes that "don't fit", but the composer knew how to make them fit in a way that delightfully shocks the ear and makes you sit up and listen harder. You end up thinking, "How'd he DO that?" and the next thing you know you've got guitar in hand trying to figure out how to incorporate that weird key change into something of your own.
With jazz it is similar. There really are no rules except the rule that it has to sound good to YOU. Someone once told me that learning theory is like watching black and white TV all of your life, then suddenly someone pushes the button to make it in color. It just opens up many new possibilities, makes the music richer, and it also makes it easier to learn new songs and play with others on songs you never even heard before.
And Bob? I don't care how you learned what you learned, nor how "correctly" you play your songs. I'd rather listen to you than most players I know. PLEASE, let me know when you have a CD available. I'll buy several copies for myself and my friends. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Thanks Allison (no CD coming anytime soon tho) |
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Location: cincinnati, ohio | Allison - I like that line - "You already know it; you just don't know you know it." I think that fits me to a tee. As far as theory stifling creativity: I agree with you. Creativity is using the "wrong" chord because you want to try something different. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Look at David ("Mr. Dissonance" Crosby. By the same token, I don't think NOT having formal training has hindered where I want to go with my playing. As you said - I do know it subconsciously.
Bob - got to thinking about your frequent disclaimers about not playing the song the right way or the correct way. What exactly IS the right way or the correct way? When I do a cover song, I try to make sure I cover the "signature" licks as closely as possible (e.g., the intro to "Fire and Rain" - that's iconic), and the little fills and riffs that stand out. But on the bulk of the choruses, while I try to play the chords as close to the original as possible, I throw in variations and use my own picking patterns. It's my arrangement.
You, my friend, have a gift for arranging. I have taken several tunes from your tutorials that I had ever despaired of playing live, and now I play them all the time because of your accessible arrangements.
So whatever it is you're NOT doing, please keep NOT doing it!
Oh - and add me to the list of folks who would LOVE to hear a Bob Glisson CD... |
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Location: cincinnati, ohio | Allison - I like that line - "You already know it; you just don't know you know it." I think that fits me to a tee. As far as theory stifling creativity: I agree with you. Creativity is using the "wrong" chord because you want to try something different. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Look at David ("Mr. Dissonance" Crosby. By the same token, I don't think NOT having formal training has hindered where I want to go with my playing. As you said - I do know it subconsciously.
Bob - got to thinking about your frequent disclaimers about not playing the song the right way or the correct way. What exactly IS the right way or the correct way? When I do a cover song, I try to make sure I cover the "signature" licks as closely as possible (e.g., the intro to "Fire and Rain" - that's iconic), and the little fills and riffs that stand out. But on the bulk of the choruses, while I try to play the chords as close to the original as possible, I throw in variations and use my own picking patterns. It's my arrangement.
You, my friend, have a gift for arranging. I have taken several tunes from your tutorials that I had ever despaired of playing live, and now I play them all the time because of your accessible arrangements.
So whatever it is you're NOT doing, please keep NOT doing it!
Oh - and add me to the list of folks who would LOVE to hear a Bob Glisson CD... |
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