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| If Ovation simply included pics of Al di Meola and/or Kaki and/or Melissa in the ads it would make a difference. It's the association of great (in AdM's case great GREAT) players with a brand that count.
Jeff's point only underlines what W2 is saying - Kaman is run to benefit Kaman in the current quarter, not Ovation over thw next 3 years. If Ovation ever starts to fail they wouldn't hesitate to kill it - that's what corporations do.
Hey Bill - why don't you buy Ovation back? :D |
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Location: cincinnati, ohio | What a novel concept Schroeder has! Prominent artists-- people we know-- promoting Ovation guitars! What have we had the past few years? I remember in particular a mean-looking biker with a bandana on his head, someone you wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley, talking about how Ovation is his type of guitar. Made me want to just rush right out and buy a dozen. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Been there, done that, bought the T shirt, wrote the book, moved to Florida for the sun, golf and the beach. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Hmmmmm....
get back into the hassles of Corp America
sit in the sun, play golf, relax.....
tough choice Bill....tough choice. |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | Point of order here:
Shakira is fanastically popular in Latin America
Actually, didn't last summer they change something to do with the stock valuation in Kaman? And since that time, haven't they issued some more models (ie the reissues?). The corporate people seem to be groping for a way to increase market share. You guys make it sound hopelesss. I wonder if I bought a couple of shares I'd get to go to the annual meeting. They must let share holders have a spout off moment. |
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Location: closely held secret | As long as they don't let Moody in. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | The company's Recapitalization and the addition of new models are about as unrelated as Hilary Cliton and Bootsey Collins |
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Location: cincinnati, ohio | Quote from an4340: "You guys make it sound hopeless."
I don't think anyone necessarily thinks it's hopeless-- maybe Ovation's doing better than we think. The problem is that the climate in corporate America these days is not at all encouraging. It's all about "being lean." It's all about squeezing as much blood out of the turnip as you can without putting anything back into it. If you can get one poor schmuck to do the work of 5 people, the bottom line is that much better. If you can get EVERY schmuck in the company to do the work of 5 people, hallelujah!! I've seen it at my day job. Six years ago we were a thriving company with over 500 employees and had our own manufacturing operation. Today we have 60 people and are hanging on by our fingernails. The manufacturing operation is gone and we outsource everything to China. The product is crappy, but that's okay because the cost is low. Five years ago they made a bean counter president of the company. The next day-- Black Friday-- he went through the place with a scythe. Hundreds of people got their pink slips. Then, ironically, he had to hire many of them back temporarily as "consultants" at five times their salary because nobody could do their jobs! He didn't have the foresight to look past the end of his nose; all he looked at was the bottom line-- not whether or not he actually NEEDED the people he was letting go.
And that, unfortunately, is the way things are. We can only hope that it will get better someday. In this climate, it's unlikely Ovation will put a huge effort into endorsements. They'll want to keep the costs to a minimum. |
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Location: Poplar Bluff Mo | Wow, I just figured out who cwk2 is. You and your family sure built great guitars. |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | Whoa! Hillary Clinton and Bootsy Collins, I'm way off base on that one. LOL. Sheeet. Well, whoever is responsible for the reissues should be on the board. I'm so tempted just to go out and buy a share so I can have a vote. I have to ask my wife for permission. I'll let you know how it turns out. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Rick, happened to me about 5 years ago.
I was in charge of all contracts and purchasing for a 20+ location company in the environmental field. I had consistently (documented) saved the company 2-5% each year from the prior year.
We got bought out by an European company who knew everything better than we did. They cut loose all the mid/upper excecutive positions after picking our brains for about 6 months.
The killer was that after 10+ years, I was rewarded with 2 weeks severance and don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. That's when I learned the hard truth that severance packages are a gift and not a requirement. The funny thing is, we were offered a 6 month severance package when they first took over but were told that they really needed us and that we were part of the future.....all a clever ploy to use us for a while and then kick us out cheap.
This really made me wake up and take my head out of the sand and finally go into business for myself (and damn I have a wonderful, good lookin boss!) |
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Location: Cicero, NY | Whoa...I know that some bean counters out there deserve their day in Hades but take it easy on the generalizations, guys. Some of us actually participate in very well run companies and actually help save companies from their own brass from time to time. I've seen my share of companies run into the mud because of poor decisions based on "founder intuition" as much as any accountant's opinion and my guess is that many of you have too. The harsh reality is that many owners find that they're great at running a small company and are very profitable. Then, growth puts them right out of their league, management wise. I worked for one such company. Ran like a well oiled machine until they hit about 100 in staff. At 200, they were hanging by a thread and ended up bankrupt ending everyone's job on the spot.
And, while I shouldn't have to say this, I will anyway - nothing in that paragraph is aimed at Kaman. I'm sure Bill knows more about how that particular company is run than anyone and I'll certainly accept his view there but, in general, all counters aren't stupid people and willing to trade careers for sake of the bottom line. Most are just there to catch that blame. |
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Location: GATLINBURG TENNESSEE :) | I'll have to admit that I have personally benefited from the popularity drop of Ovation guitars. I (and many of you) have had numerous opportunities to buy top quality Ovation and Adamas instruments in the last few years, at super bargain prices. I would never have thought that I'd be able to buy superior sounding and playing instruments for the price these Ovations are going for these days. I'm just wondering when people are going to catch on to this? I can't count the number of people I know who have approached me and asked advice on buying a new guitar lately. Most of them have been prepared to spend 6 bills+ on a new crappy Taylor or some other foreign-made junk. I have had the pleasure of steering many of them to the used Ovations that are so plentiful on line. I've even been able to purchase some for them. When they get these guitars in their hands, it feels so good to see the expression on their faces, to get a top notch American made guitar for less than a junky new one. As was mentioned earlier, even the new reissues are a steal in comparison to their Non-O "competitors" I think it would be wise for all of us to give in to our GAS and take advantage of this gravy-train while it still lasts. After all ... everyone knows the price of GAS is going to continue to go up fast. (: |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Guilty! |
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Location: Cherry Hill, NJ | I guess we could all remember when Ovation was the only game in town in the early days of Acoustic Electrics. Competition produced some very good brands of guitar. My take is that guitar players tend to be conservative, especially acoustic players. Look at the value of early Martins or Gibsons, even thought they may not play or sound very well. They tend to shy away from flashy or innovative type guitars like Ovations. Also, Talyor seems to lean heavy on the type of wood, in their sales promotion. What else could they promote? Again, it who plays them, that makes a guitar popular more than anything. |
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Location: cincinnati, ohio | To get back to the original question-- do we KNOW that Ovations have dropped off in popularity, or do they just have a lower profile? I don't know; that's why I asked. I'm not sure where you would go to find the info; i.e., sales figures, market shares, etc., and how they compare with years past. Admittedly, you see more Taylors than anything else out there right now. That seems to be the guitar of choice for the purists ("wood snobs") right now, the way Martins used to be.
Stephent28: I went throught that too, in 1989. Worked as a copier service tech at a Fortune 500 company for 11 years, got to the top of the pay range. They came in and started cuttin' heads based on salary, then declared Chapter 13 after all that.
Weaser P: just like anything else, I'm sure there ARE some good bean counters out there. I just have never met 'em! |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Weaser is just trying to justify his job as a bean counter.....but we all know the truth ;) |
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Location: Australia | I wouldn't be crying crocodile tears over the Ovation company just yet. Didn't I read somewhere recently that they've sold over one million guitars. Pretty impressive if you ask me.
They're still a major brand (who hasn't heard of them) and the factory seems constanstly busy building what is now the most extensive range of models ever.
You want an old style Legend, Adamas with cutting edge technology, Glen Campbell, Di Meola, or even a slothead ! Deep, mid, shallow, artist or contour bowl and on and on and on.
"Every dog has it's day" is an expression that comes to me. I remember years back when I was involved in the distribution of Taylor. They were a very hard sell, no one wanted them but now they're the flavour of the month and in my opinion the guitars are nowhere near as good as they used to be.
I think Ovation are probably doing very nicely indeed and you wait, one day some up and coming superstar will hit the scene playing one and their profile will once again rise. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Don't tell any of the suits but one of the best things that has ever happened to Ovaiton is the OFC. This is the place where the enthusiasum fire flames get fanned constantly (say that three times fast) There are people from all over the world and from the stories told,They're not afraid to step forward and defend Ovation in the shops and gigs etc. That's the underground or grassroots momentum that keeps things going. Having continual good new product helps. Now all that's needed is a ton of high visability promotion in multiple places.
Hey, ya got the first two. Take what you got and do the best you can. |
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Location: Upper Left USA | W2,
They need to do a few commercials where the guy/gal in the OFC t-shirt comes in to tune the O's and provide some in-shop interventions.
Last weekend in the GC I was trying to have an open mind and try some of the upper costed boxes.
The Takamines won in the "upscale" room, but whilst I was grazing I caught the plot with a Customer looking over high end Martins. (Note: Being ADHD and in a Guitar Center is like having 27 channels on all at once).
He was A/B'ing two so I offered to play and let him listen. I caught that whatever he spent on a guitar would be matched in Jewelry for the Mrs., who was being fairly supportive. He talked about tone and sound and such and I tried to get him to play an EliteT that was right there.
I got that look like I had asked him to change a diaper.
My summary is that he wasn't a skilled player, and he was sold on a concept that would cost him twice what he should pay. If he had grabbed the 05 Collector and dashed off to the Jeweler's he would have gotten his heart's desire and more at a 50% discount!
How can you not try to learn them better??? :confused: |
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Location: cincinnati, ohio | If they have the money, they don't care, Woody. You're exactly right; somebody sold them on a "concept" (read B.S.), and they bought it hook, line and sinker. It's like trying to sell a Lexus to someone who's been told he/she should get a Porsche. Ain't gonna happen. High-end Martins are fine guitars, but so's an Elite T. It's just a matter of degree (and $). The problem? No "snob factor." |
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Location: Orlando, FL | I think the "snob factor" is partially a result of artist endorsments. If Taylor has a lot of high profile endorsees and users, the average Joe thinks they must be great guitars. The artist endorsements is what originally made me aware of Ovation. The awareness made me want to play one. Playing one made me want to buy one. It's not that artists are not playing Ovations at all anymore, we still see them and post sightings all the time. OK, not as many artists, and not as many high profile artsts, but they are still out in the public eye. But when you open a magazine and see the ads with youf favorite guitarist saying "this is a great guitar" it drives interest. Nikki Sixx may have sold an Ovation or 2 (or lost a sale or 2), but putting Kaki King or Al Dimeola or other respected artists IN THE ADS would probably generate interst to play an Ovation. The interest will get people play one, and if you play one you might buy one! Of course, if they expect a great guitar they need to find a decent USA model to try, but that's a whole nother rant! |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by cwk2:
Hilary Cliton That's wasn't a typo, was it ??? |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | What typo? Hillary? :rolleyes:
.........................................
Anyway folks, Ovations are still really popular everywhere it counts. With us, a goodly number of knowledgable pros, (Al de M*** etc) and even the box git snobs!
All this pissing and moaning sounds to me like nothing so much as a 5'11" man whining about suffering from 'little man syndrome.'
Ovation is one of the largest, most popular guitar brands in the world, of all time. Maybe only a Canadian can appreciate the value of being among the best in the world as opposed to being the best in the world. (that's why I'm here after all! ;) ) |
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Location: Ky | "Yup, that's why I sold my Taylor and bought an Ovation."
...........I sold my Taylor & bought 3 Ovations.
The Taylor was great -I bought it at the factory in El Cajon, Ca. I didn't care who played one -I just went into the San Diego Guitar Center, played every acoustic they had in the $2,000.00 price range, and the Taylor seemed to be the best. As I would sooner die than give G.C. any of my hard earned $$, I headed out to the factory, which was only 15 miles away. The factory is fantastic. I even met Bob Taylor & Kurt Lustig. These guys know how to market guitars, and how to run a successful company for that matter. Taylor enthusiasts gradually began to bug me, though as they act like owning a Taylor is akin to being in some exclusive religion for the priveleged. Kind of like a "Scientology for Guitars". They belittle everything un-Taylor, as if it's the unholy "Anti-Taylor." To tell the truth, I was surprised to find some dudes here at the OFC, who own both Taylors AND O's. If one can afford it, that's cool!
The Taylor workshops held around the country I think go a long way to promote their guitars. I would say Ovation (or Kaman, anyway), is a huge, far more profitable company, what with their import business & all. They have not focused on making a religion, they just wanna sell guitars.
I like the fact that Ovations are not extremely "popular". It keeps the prices down. I also like playing a guitar that is different from what all the current "celebrities" play. I recently made a vow (with my wife), to stick with only guitars under $1,000.00. (I used to have over $20,000.00 invested -serious G.A.S.) Ovation, and several other companies today, offer some great stuff in that price range. That keeps it fun and enables me to still keep the important bills paid. |
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Just how popular are Ovations anyway?
