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| Random quote: "Jazz... isn't that just a series of mistakes disguised as musical composition?” - David St. Hubbins of Spinal Tap |
 Music mp3 file sharing
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| Forums Archive -> The Vault: 2002-2003 | Message format | |
Bailey |
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Joined: May 2002 Posts: 3005 Location: Las Cruces, NM | Miles I am dead serious, if radio, TV and other outlets had to go to a central web source as I described, a modern day ASCAP, then as you put your songs on the site you might get played. It would take some FCC involvement, but the present system is dead or dying. The web is full of so called free music that could be distrubuted with payment to the artist. The FCC can't control the web but it can tell radio and TV how to get their music, they do already as Royalties are required when music is played. The times they are a changing Bailey | ||
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| Mr. Ovation |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7236 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Thanks Bailey, I see that. I think it's a good idea too. A lot would have to change, but it's a conversation starter anyway. I think a big issue with radio play is simply that most radio stations have nothing to do with what songs are played. The record companies tell the stations what songs to play and how often, and that is mixed in with commercial demand. There are actually commercials that have requirements to be played before or after artists, or to NOT be played before or after certain artists, along with not before or after news and weather etc. etc etc.. In the DC area it's funny to listen to any of the music stations because although located in technically different markets, Baltimore and DC are in the same listening range. It is not uncommon, as in at almost any given time of day, you can hear the same song on more than one station at a time. It is my understanding that they all use the same software to derive their play lists. I used to commute 1.5 hour each way, and it was funny trying to "get away" from a song that you didn't like. It would be EVERYWHERE on the dial at the same time. It's to the point now that I don't listen to radio anymore for music anymore. I am looking forward to maybe getting XM Radio soon. It seems like the only place to hear a variety of music, or at least if not a variety, it's my choice of genre and artist. | ||
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| an4340 |
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Joined: May 2003 Posts: 4389 Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | FYI for those who download. I guess the odds are one in 100,000 of them coming after you. But as the guy at the end of the article says, he knew it was illegal, and of course would not want to hurt anyone, but he did not think thru the consequences. Like when I was living in the suburbs. My train got to the station. Instead of going over a circuitis path and bridge, I decided to save 5 minutes to get to my car by hopping a fence, crossing the inbound track, then hopping another fence. This transit cop appeared out of nowhere chasing me with a gun. He told me that I had ignored a sign and what I was doing was dangerous for myself and others. I told him I would never hurt anyone etc blah blah, and he gave me a summons. I went to court with parole violaters, drunk and disorderlies, wife beaters and pled my case. I told the judge the same story, that I wouldn't hurt anyone, I was tired blah blah ... The Judge laughed, but told me he'd have to fine me $100. It's the law. So for you downloaders, it's theft, just don't get caught because when you go to court it's a pain in the a**. Oh yeah, I have record now so watch, out. If you want to have record too, go ahead. Oh yeah, when the police hear your explanition it sounds like blah blah wah wah like from the Peanuts cartoon. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/28/technology/28TUNE.html?th | ||
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| Bailey |
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Joined: May 2002 Posts: 3005 Location: Las Cruces, NM | Miles You and many others including me, are marching with their radio dials, and refusing to listen to music that is forced by the producers but not requested by the listeners. The payola scandels are nothing compared to the control of OUR airwaves by record producers. Country music has degenerated into a form of cheap rock that isn't even good rock. I suspect the rock stations are the same. If people refuse to listen then it will have to be corrected, and what I proposed would solve the peoblem. If 20 people request a song, then the station finds it on the web and plays it, no record company involved. Somehow, we have to let the staions, AND THEIR SPONSORS, and the FCC, know that we are fed up with this parody of music selection by producers rather than CUSTOMERS. I just saw that Napster is coming back with a pay per song Scheme. Bailey | ||
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| Mr. Ovation |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7236 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | an4340, Thanks for your post.. you reminded me of one very important point and that is downloading of music IS NOT ILLEGAL. Some may want it to be, some are sueing over it, some have been shut down because of it, but there is no law against it that isn't left up to interpretation. They are using the copyright laws that are long outdated, and in fact didn't cover the advent of music sharing on the internet. This is only PART of the problem. Lets say there WAS a law... well then... that law would only apply in the USA (or wherever the law was applicable) but wait... What if you download from an overseas site, or what about all the music downloaded overseas, or what about music that ARTISTS WANT SHARED (and there are artist who release music themselves on Kazaa and Morpheus. The more I think about it, it's that the problem is in the interpretation of the current laws and even if current law is applicable, then its enforcement. To use your example of crossing the tracks... What if the folks who lived on both sides, got permits and all, and built a foot bridge across tracks. Nice and high for the trains to go under, all legal and approved by all parties Then, you cross using the bridge, you are still breaking the law. The sign states DO NOT CROSS. Maybe that's not a great analogy, but I like it. DOwnloading is obviously up for debate, but I am more concerned that Consumers are being targeted by Record companies and the artists are STILL not going to get their due. The complaint should not be that people are stealing music, but moreover music is getting into the hands of 1000's of people and the artist is not getting compensation for that. NO matter what happens to the people sued, the artist STILL isn't going to get compensation, and I think that's the problem. | ||
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| Strummin12 |
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Joined: August 2002 Posts: 623 Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | Great point, Miles. Johnny | ||
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| Mr. Ovation |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7236 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Paul H. You asked a good question that wasn't addressed. "My good friend downloads hundreds of songs. With these lawsuits floating around, can you be forced to remove songs you have already downloaded from your computer? " It really won't matter as they will own his house, and it's contents including the computer. The lawyers who started this (and I'm sure won't be giving any money to the artists) are going after 100's or even 1000's of dollars FOR EACH SONG DOWNLOADED. After a little more thought on the legal side of things, I guess at some point, someone is going to have to find out if each song downloaded falls into the copyright infringement they are be sued for. There is afterall a lot of royalty free music to download too, and what about bootleg songs. Songs recorded at concerts... and just for fun lets say WITH THE ARTISTS PERMISSION as many artists do now... Someone is going to have to listen to each song a the defendants hard drive. Hmm... (I'm just amusing myself at this point) If they are using records from the ISP's and you download a song, and the download fails, or the hard drive crashes or lets just say you delete it because you realized it wasn't the song you wanted. What a mess... | ||
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| alpep |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10583 Location: NJ | HOw about this for some food for thought??? I own probably 4000+ lps 300+ 45's 1000+ cd's 200+ pre recorded tapes and maybe 100+ 78's Now if I decide that I own "yellow submarine" for example, on both CD and LP but it is easier for me to download an MPS version than to find the cd and make a copy for myself am I in violation??? | ||
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| amstphd |
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Joined: January 2003 Posts: 146 Location: Germantown, MD | And yet more food for thought, Al. What about someone who converts his CDs into MP3s for the sole purpose of having more music on a single disk so that he won't have to change disks while driving on long trips? I think it could be argued that the principle applying here is that one can make a duplicate copy of a computer application for backup purposes and can even install the app on two computers provided that the program won't be in use on both computers at the same time. The term "software" is sometimes used to describe music CDs, video and audio tapes, and video DVDs. . . . It's pretty easy to imagine someone recording old LPs or audiotapes to computer, converting the resulting files to MP3s, and then deleting the original sound files, whatever format. The only way to track this down would be through ISP records. I've heard copyright explained (with reference to books and articles)as the right to profit from copying. Seriously, if you have paid for a tune in any format, I don't think there would be a problem with making a copy in a different format--even if you owned it in CDA and downloaded the MP3 version to burn to your own CD. Hell, you might even be able to get away with downloading "Sympathy for the Devil" because you once owned the "Let it Bleed" LP, even though a girlfriend kept it when you broke up thirty years ago. Bottom line: I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV or anywhere else, but it seems like enforcing this against individuals might be really difficult and expensive. RIAA can succeed against Napster and similar entities, but going after individuals is a different matter. Peace, John | ||
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| MSB |
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Joined: June 2002 Posts: 147 | Al, To be declared ‘not in violation’, you will need to mail a notarized letter of explanation together with a photo copy of the CD, an original receipt showing the name, address, phone number of the retail store, date of purchase and UPC code together with a self addressed stamped envelope to the RIAA. Mike | ||
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| amstphd |
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Joined: January 2003 Posts: 146 Location: Germantown, MD | Mike, This sounds as if you're presumed guilty until you prove yourself innocent. Peace, John | ||
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| Mr. Ovation |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7236 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Good point Al, I think a lot of us do that. It's much easier for us to grab the mp3 off the net then to go find the CD, album or cassette that we know we have in a box someplace. This really does open a completely different can of worms. I don't know how many copies you can make for your own use of music, and certainly that depends on if music on a CD is music or software data. I just read that 4 college students settled for about $12,000 - $18,000 each with RIAA. RIAA initially wanted $100,000 from each. Now keeping in mind the artist is seeing NONE OF THIS money lets do some math. If each student downloaded only 1000 songs (I'm sure it was more, but you'll see why I'm just using 1000 in the end.) That's 4000 tunes for lets say 4 x $15,000 or $60,000. I picked $15,000 cause it's in the middle of what the settlement per student was. Anyway, that works out to $15.00 per song. It was meant to send an example, but I really fail to see what example other than lawyers are greedy. In reality if the students were made to pay for these songs, at the artist royalty rate (which doesn't go to the artist either in most cases... but lets just say).. Each of the four owe about $50.00. Remember downloads are per/song, and royalties are paid per/album, so saying 5 cents per song royalty is really one helluva deal as that is closer to what is left to an artist per album. That's why artists tour. I don't agree with the royalty breakdowns by the way, I think THAT is something that really should be addressed by lawyers first. Artists get "screwed 18 way to sunday" (whatever that means). | ||
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| alpep |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10583 Location: NJ | Originally posted by MSB: Al, To be declared ‘not in violation’, you will need to mail a notarized letter of explanation together with a photo copy of the CD, an original receipt showing the name, address, phone number of the retail store, date of purchase and UPC code together with a self addressed stamped envelope to the RIAA. Mike And how many of us keep all the original reciepts for EVERYTHING we own. That is very unreasonable. I think just producing an LP CD etc would be proof enough. LIke I have said in the past this is an issue of the industry not in tune with the technology. Who started napster? some kid in a college dorm that thought it would be cool to be able to trade music with his friends. So like so many good ideas, it turned into a monster and then the suits figured there must be a way to tap into it and to make money. This is not a bad thing it is just a difficult thing to have everyone agree on. Sueing the end user is like sueing the "john". It sorta makes sense but both parties are at fault. Look at it this way. If you have a trampoline in your back yard and do not have a fence with a lock on it and some kids come into your back yard play on it and get hurt they can sue your insurance because you had an "attractive nusiance" on your property that was not properly fenced etc. If you have a gate and a lock and they climb over the fence or cut through the fence or break the lock then they are tress passing. If the software is out there it is a attractive nusiance. Go after the websites and the people the wrote the programs. If you put up a fence with a lock (charge money for the downloads) then if some one hacks it you can go after them. I know this is just rambling and all hypothetical. | ||
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| Mr. Ovation |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7236 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Yet another aspect emerges Al, speaking of Napster. The very original intent was the development of peer-to-peer or P2P file sharing technology. During the initial development the orignal group which included a few more people than the two that went on to found Napster, needed something to test with. It just seemed to make sence to send their mp3's back and forth instead of just some random documents. And the idea of Napster was born. I wrote a letter to my Congressman (it made me feel better) that instead of the industries embracing the ground breaking technology developed by a few college students, they were out to get every penny from them. I was seeing the efforts of the creativity of those founders being punished, and that's just sad. They basically perfected a technology that Microsoft, Novell, Cisco, and the other big players (including the #1 developer of online technology the porn industry... sorry but true) had been working on for years. Here's a thought Mr. Gates or even "CBS and Warner Bros, RCA and All the others" if you are listening. What about for every file downloaded, no matter the artist or service (Napster, Kazaa, Morpheous), you each add 1 penny, just one cent for each download, to help fund Health Insurance or other similar programs currently only available to only to signed artists. Maybe when you download a song, you can select what program you want the resultant penny to go to. Gee this would promote artists, promote record companies, get the music out and heard... everybody is happy, and the "donators" get huge tax writeoff's instead of spending money on Lawyers with nothing going to artists. Here is a link to The History of Napster with some other really good info. Life is a Rock, but the Radio rolled me!! Yes I know all of the words... or I used too anyway. | ||
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| Bailey |
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Joined: May 2002 Posts: 3005 Location: Las Cruces, NM | I still say the solution is a small price per song going to the artist (not the record producer). If lawyers are allowed to participate the technology will be ruined by litigation. I say a small fee is preferable to years of litigation, I'm not sure of the mechanics but that is what is being worked out as we speak. All of this activity is taking place on computers many of which, including mine, are more powerful than the Univac 1108 that ran General Atomic when I worked there in the 60's and 70's. I am positive that the bookkeeping can be worked out and that competition will keep the prices down. It, file sharing, has turned into a great technolgy, and only needs to be tweaked to advance it from the way to steal someones productivity to a glorious way to distribute music. Bailey | ||
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| grrroovedude |
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Joined: February 2003 Posts: 299 Location: Netherlands | Doesn't anyone feel the music industry has developed itself like the dino's? In my opinion, if they don't adapt to the MP3 filesharing business, they will, sooner or later, become obsolete. It is so easy for recording artists these days to record to MP3 and distribute their own files (see MP3.com etc.). Music industry mostly consists (in my opinion) of a lot of dead wood who cost a lot of money, making cd prices go up. Internet is a fabulous way to advertise in a friendly, yet cheap way, and more and more youngsters are getting this. Unfortunately, the music biz does not. If record companies would focus more on quality and less on advertising in marketing campaigns it would be a lot cheaper to buy the cd's. Some more thoughts: some have argued in this thread that downloading MP3's (in certain cases) is a violation of copyright laws. How many of them typed their message on a computer with only registered software on it? I personally like MP3's. They make it possible for me to get into new music, listening and asking myself the question 'would i buy this?'. If the answer is yes, i buy it. If the answer is no, it's often because i don't like the music and i dón't see any use in keeping the file either. In that view, the record companies should be glad they have a lot of free advertising. And another thing, more related to this board. I am also a member of groups.yahoo.com/gt-3/ where owners of the gt-3 effects processor got together mostly thanks to the bad manual Roland supplied with it. One of the guys (Barry Pearce) wrote a new manual for it, and the groups focuses on exploring the thing in fabulous ways. It has been going on for 5 years or so and new topics are drying up. Lately however, we have started to criticize each others sounds, songs, recordings etc. which were made with the GT-3. There even is a GT-3 station on MP3.com right now. I could imagine an MP3-section on this board would be nice to share 'home-made' music and learn from each others Ovation-Playing skills. Just some thoughts. Sorry if i don't get to the point too quickly, but i'm no native speaker of english. Martin | ||
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| Mr. Ovation |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7236 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Bailey I'm withya on this, but there are some other issues with "The solution is a small price per song going to the artist (not the record producer)." All of the idea's we've come up with, are not that difficult to impliment on their own, but they all seem to have problem areas. In this example the problem area is that in most cases, especially if there is a producer involved with the artist, the artist is in breach of contract to receive any money directly in the process of promotion. On the other hand, how does an unsigned artist get their money? Maybe they have to register, but then there is the issue of how do they split it up if it's a group. That's why I went for the more "give it to programs that benefit artists" approach. At some point it would be interesting to go through this thread and just make bullets of all the issuies involved with this topic. Doesn't matter pro or con, just all the things to consider. Somthing that seems so simple really isn't. | ||
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| an4340 |
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Joined: May 2003 Posts: 4389 Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | I reread that article from the Times (see previous post) and something called Peer-to-peer swapping is legal, and what's going on regarding the mass downloading, is that the record companies are making a case that the mass downloading is illegal with legal scholars mostly on the side that it is illegal. My gut says it's illegal, but, I guess once these lawsuits are sorted out we'll know for sure. | ||
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| alpep |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10583 Location: NJ | according to tech tv people with as few as 5 songs on thier list have been cited. I wish I could write code I would put up a site and call it the cyber juke box and charge for each download etc. there has to be a way to make money out of this instead of fighting join in and cash in. | ||
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| grrroovedude |
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Joined: February 2003 Posts: 299 Location: Netherlands | Here in the Netherlands there was an experiment sometime ago, you could burn your own CD and payed 1 euro or so per song in the recordstore. It didn't work however because everybody is freeloading. Martin | ||
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| Bailey |
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Joined: May 2002 Posts: 3005 Location: Las Cruces, NM | A lot of good thought rattling around here! Miles, I oversimplified when I said "to the artist". The thought in my mind was that certain web sites would replace record/CD producers in that they would produce and record and promote promising artists the way record producers do today, but the product would be distributed over the web. The word "juke-box" seems very relevant, and that could be a facet of distribution, computers in bars plugged in to the web, when you put in your buck, up comes a search engine for any song you've ever heard. Or, a menu of song categories etc.. No CD exists the songs come right off the web like all songs do in this model imaginary world. If somebody heard Paul T. play on some tour, and he/she knows the song title and artist, out of the jukebox comes Paul T. or Alpep or who knows. This feature would have to be used carefully, an ancient Tiny Tim song played in a honky tonk in west Texas might cause a ride out of town on a rail with a suit of tar and feathers. | ||
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| Nils |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 1380 Location: Central Oregon | I'm glad T.T. didn't Tiptoe Through the Tulips playing an Ovation Uke. I have to say I really miss Johnny though..... I don't really have an opinion on the issue at hand, but I can see one major problem with most all of the proposed solutions given- I don't think any of them left room for a lawyer to make money in one way or another. They will never stand for that. Nils | ||
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| Bailey |
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Joined: May 2002 Posts: 3005 Location: Las Cruces, NM | Nils I could visualized a lawyer playing that Tiny Tim song in a west Texas honky-tonk. That certainly gives them a part to play in this scheme. The only variance would be that they might suffer that 19th century Texas custom of displaying societies dregs hanging from some prominent landmark, the honor of the ride out of town with the usual ceremony would not normally be given to those with an LLD. | ||
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| Mr. Ovation |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7236 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Bailey, There are already online only record companies, and several outlets like you descibed. I just read a brosure from DiskMakers (the people that repro disks) that you can actually have them distro your product after printing. In Europe, many DJ's in clubs no longer carry boxes of CD's or Albums ('cept for scratching) they just download the playlist. You can request really just about any song. Some use pay services to downloan, others just go find it. A networked jukebox it already in existance, but on a smaller scale in many resturants and hotels. For that choose to use it, the tools are already there. | ||
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| F.Bailey |
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Joined: July 2003 Posts: 34 Location: Yerington,NV | Way to go Paul! I could'nt have said it any better! | ||
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