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Location: Sydney, Australia | DanSavage - 2012-10-19 4:06 AM
So, the only way to fix that mistake and rehabilitate the Ovation name is to either stop selling the low-cost guitars under the Ovation name, which isn't very likely, or to bring the QC of these guitars up to the standard of the Amercian-made guitars.
To re-use the Apple analogy used earlier, all the Apple products I have say "Made in China" yet the quality is second to none. Ovation span a market from entry to high level. Apple sell an iPod for under $100, but will also sell you an expensive computer. The iPod shuffle is damn well made though.
It would have been better if Ovation had continued to sell the LX guitars alongside the AX - put them side by side in the shops and see which ones people bought - is it just us snobs or will other people appreciate the difference in a head to head competition.
I appreciate the quality touches on the high-end Ovations - the XLR output lets me plug straight into the church PA and the VIP gives a very acoustic sound. People have commented on how nice it sounds. |
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | richard.parker - 2012-10-18 3:16 PM
To re-use the Apple analogy used earlier, all the Apple products I have say "Made in China" yet the quality is second to none. Ovation span a market from entry to high level. Apple sell an iPod for under $100, but will also sell you an expensive computer. The iPod shuffle is damn well made though...
Yes, that was my point. Steve Jobs demanded that Apple products maintain the same quality level no matter where they were made and he refused to accept a lower level of quality just because they were made overseas.
He moved manufacturing overseas so that he could offer the same high-quality products at a lower price. |
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Location: Indiana | stueym - 2012-10-18 10:48 AM
Jonmark may tell me I am not looking in the right places, but seriously there is nothing around here that would allow me or any musician in the Nashville area to know anything about higher quality Ovation product other than old guys like me play them in church.
No, I agree completely, Stuart...
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Location: Sydney, Australia | Does OFC really stand for Old Farts Club? |
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Location: Lebanon, TN | richard.parker - 2012-10-18 7:22 PM
Does OFC really stand for Old Farts Club?
How dare you! I resemble that remark!  |
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Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | stueym - 2012-10-18 7:30 PM richard.parker - 2012-10-18 7:22 PM
Does OFC really stand for Old Farts Club? How dare you! I resemble that remark! WE resemble that remark! |
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| BobG,
"The problem with Ovation, as I see it, is that they were once big innovators, but have really don't nothing new in 20+ years." Bobbo has pointed out many examples but you won't accept them as innovative. Not much can be done about changing YOUR perceptions if you refuse to acknowledge them. You point to this as the big reason Ovation is "struggling."
I will freely admit that I did not know all the things Ovation has done to their guitars. I will debate whether some of them are actually "innovative" or not. The thing you are missing is the phrase, " ...as I see it.." which echos the bulk of the guitar world. So, "as I see it", they haven't done much based on my knowledge week ago. While I NOW see things somewhat differently, none of the things listed would I call big innovations. Lots of evolutions and changes of the basic design for the better, a few innovative ways to rectify issues they believed they could improve on, but not BIG innovations, " as I see it". Some have a different view of what is a big thing or not. No point arguing that. I can not "refuse to admit" what I do not agree with.
The other part is that Ovation was known for doing very different things and were quite popular for them. However, the other guitar companies were NOT known for the same and so do NOT have to continue to BE innovative to keep their name in the shops and magazines and selling lots of guitars. So, the counter argument of, "Well, show me where THEY made big innovations ! " is completely hollow. Martin is still known for what ever it is compels people to buy Martin. Taylor still does what people expect out of Taylor. Way too many times have a I read or have heard from people that " Ovation use to be...". I would bet , "as they see it ", Ovation has not kept up with things in some way. You could certainly sit them all down and berate THEM for not knowing the inside scoop on Ovation changes. That might change their opinion.
Or you might try to find out why they think Ovation has been passed by, or why they don't like the shape or the sound or the pickup or ....
How the rest of the guitar buying public "sees it" should be important for the company to know.
Here is a tip for the marketing guys. Get more on YouTube than the three or so Ovation commercials their "channel" has. Get professionally done videos of performers playing their guitars and make them sound really good ! 1 year ago, I had no idea what a Maton guitar was. With clips of Tommy Emmanuel all over the 'tube, from fans and from production DVDs, I know know a lot more. What I can find of Ovation is lower quality amateur stuff and OLD clips from the 70s or early 80s. Come on. Even here there are "Ovation Sighting" threads to help people FIND them being used. How much can a YouTube push cost them ? Maybe then more people with " see it " YOUR way, Bob, and less will believe as I did.
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Location: Sunshine State, Australia | JohnW63 - 2012-10-19 1:34 PM BobG, . Or you might try to find out why they think Ovation has been passed by,/QUOTE] The reason Ovation "has been passed by"? It's got nothing whatsoever to do with 'Innovation'. Despite JohnW63's constant arguments against the concept, Ovation have continued to be VERY innovative over the last few decades. But it hasn't helped their sales. The reason Ovation "has been passed by", in MY opinion, has been addressed by surprisingly few in this 7 page discussion - that most people think a CELEBRITY is an OVATION! Ovation (Fender) needs to change THEIR attitude to Ovations, which (hopefully) will in turn change the general public's attitude to Ovations. It ain't gonna happen over night tho'! |
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Location: Sunshine State, Australia | JohnW63 - 2012-10-19 1:34 PM. Or you might try to find out why they think Ovation has been passed by, The reason Ovation "has been passed by"? It's got nothing whatsoever to do with 'Innovation'. Despite JohnW63's constant arguments against the concept, Ovation have continued to be VERY innovative over the last few decades. But it hasn't helped their sales. The reason Ovation "has been passed by", in MY opinion, has been addressed by surprisingly few in this 7 page discussion - that most people think a CELEBRITY is an OVATION! Ovation (Fender) needs to change THEIR attitude to Ovations, which (hopefully) will in turn change the general public's attitude to Ovations. It ain't gonna happen over night tho'! |
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| So, you think that the "common knowledge" of Ovation is from people playing their lower end guitars ? If that IS the case, then the the next question would be, " Why are they only trying out the cheap stuff ? ". Is that all they can find ?
Here is an example that may make your point.
On youtube there is a series of guitar examples under the title of "How does it sound ?". Here is a direct link to their list of acoustic guitars.
http://fr.audiofanzine.com/guitare-acoustique/editorial/dossiers/co...
They have plenty of Martins, Taylors, Santa Cruz, Gibson, Guild ... one or two Takamine, two Seagull, and an Ovation CC 44. I don't really care for the sound of the thing. Of course, there are not just a few clips on youtube that make the Adamas not sound good either. Such as this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N50oTz3w8h4&feature=related
Which is why I have said Ovation needs to get the "good stuff" out !
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | So John... Why is being a Troll so much fun?
Personally, I do not care if others like Ovations or see them as innovative. I don't care if Fender makes a profit. I like MY guitars and enjoy playing them, even if I ain't that good at it I like the sound. Like Nick B sez "Playing a guitar is like petting a puppy, you don't have to be any good at it to enjoy it." And I enjoy my Ovations. People keep telling you of Ovation innovations and you still say that those innovations aren't good enough. If you don't like the changes, or you don't like the original concept, why should it matter to you whether Ovation innovates? Do you go to the Harley sites and ask why Harley still uses the V-twin when other lay-outs have been proven to be more effective? In the "Kinder-Gentler OFC" no-one seems to want to point-out that you are just trying pick an argument for entertainment. You have taken Good News and used it as an opportunity to get your jollies. You can have any Ovation you want... Just contact Al and he will send your order on its way. Have you credit card ready. Or you can go the BFLG route... I wanted a Trekker with a preamp, so I built one. Then sold it. The new owner was happy and I got the experience.
You keep on telling us what you seem to think Ovation hasn't done...
Contact Taylor and tell them what you want... See what response you get.
If a guitar doesn't satisfy your need, buy one that does... and quit sniveling.
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| If you think I'm a "troll" you haven't paid attention. If you don't like what I think, don't read it. It's pretty simple. Some people have mentioned this has been an interesting thread. I hope it has. It has NOTHING to do with my "jollies". If I was a troll, I never would have brought up things I think Ovation could do to IMPROVE their place in the guitar spectrum. What is telling in YOUR response is that you don't CARE if others like the brand or if Fender makes a profit by them. I do care. Why ? Because if they have YOUR attitude, they would quickly be GONE. I saw this thread as an opportunity to get the ear of a Fender guy and give them opinions that I thought would help. What was YOUR motivation in this thread ? |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Uh-huh... So what great suggestion did you give the Fender guy?
I missed that part.
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| Start on page one. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | well, i don't think the "troll" comment is appropriate in this thread.....so far.
I do think that maybe John is looking at innovations as not being what they are....because they were innovative at the time and others have copied or surpassed some of the ideas that Ovation brought to market....and when they were originally brought to market some of those items that Bobbo listed were TREMENDOUS innovations for the time when they came out.
To continue to use the apple analogy. the iPhone1 doesn't seem all that great now compared to when it came out....but when it first appeared it was a pretty big innovation. |
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Location: Flahdaw | JohnW63 - 2012-10-19 1:53 AM
Start on page one.
Why don't YOU start by answering the question that's been asked of you probably 4 times in this thread...
Name the HUGE innovations that other acoustic guitar companies have introduced that have caused them to soar ahead of Ovation in the marketplace. (you seem unusually quiet on this point???) |
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Location: Fort Worth, TX | darkbarguitar - 2012-10-19 5:55 AM
JohnW63 - 2012-10-19 1:53 AM
Start on page one.
Why don't YOU start by answering the question that's been asked of you probably 4 times in this thread...
Name the HUGE innovations that other acoustic guitar companies have introduced that have caused them to soar ahead of Ovation in the marketplace. (you seem unusually quiet on this point??? )
Not trying to interject politics in here at all, but I feel asking him this is akin to Obama constantly pointing out how Romney won't give specific details of his plans for his presidency when Obama knows full well everything Romney is saying will require "across the aisle" negotiations to implement. I have stayed out of this thread because I firmly believe in O's, ever since the GC I had and sadly sold over 35 years ago. So GLAD to have my 40th anniv Balladeer to replace it. I don't think, as a careful reader of this thread, that John has ducked anything and I certainly think the troll comment was totally out of line (YOU didn't make it). I think he has thoroughly defended his views and it's the inherent protectionism of the brand by long time members here that are causing them to not give his comments the validity they deserve. I'd be willing to bet John isn't losing any sleep over all this disagreement with him. He seems to like O's as much as anyone here. Yes, this coming from the guy who self admittedly got off to the worst start of anyone on any forum I belong to here on this one. |
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Location: NJ | one point
squire stratocaster
made in mexico strat
made in usa strat
differences between USA and mexican are price
difference in squire is quality
now with ovation
what do you have?
celebrity and applause made in china
former usa models made in korea.
unfortunately the QC IMHO is spotty.
Fender is the MASTER of determining how much of a product can be made overseas with putting a made in USA label on it.
so
bowls made in ohio shipped to korea for assembly? why
machine heads are ping they come from China
preamps made in korea? china? I am not sure
so maybe get the korean factory to assemble tops with braces
ship them to the us and slap them on bowls and put a neck on them and call them made in USA
at least the QC would be higher and you would have control over the neck production which is very critical
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Location: Flahdaw | DaveKell - 2012-10-19 7:18 AM
I don't think, as a careful reader of this thread, that John has ducked anything
Well, I completely disagree. He has categorically stated that Ovation's "problem" is that they haven't been "innovative" enough. By implication, he is saying that OTHER companies HAVE been, and that's why Ovation has been passed by. We are merely asking him (many times) who these madly innovative companies are, and he has consistently DUCKED the question each and every time.
JohnW is not asking anything new. He is not an "innovative" poster. These controversial threads pop up every so often and garner LOTS of opinions and arguments, back and forth. Usually, however, when someone is asked to answer a question to support their position, they DO....they don't duck it.
Edited by BobG 2012-10-19 7:49 AM
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Location: Sunshine State, Australia | JohnW63 - 2012-10-19 2:52 PM So, you think that the "common knowledge" of Ovation is from people playing their lower end guitars ? If that IS the case, then the the next question would be, " Why are they only trying out the cheap stuff ? ". Is that all they can find? That pretty much sums it up. The problem doesn't lie with the good folks that already own Celibacies and Applesauces, it's when their friends hear them and think they're listening to an Ovation. F@ck, it's got Ovation on the headstock! It must be an Ovation! THAT'S the problem! |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Maybe a lesson to be learned from other companies: Martin, Takamine, Taylor, Gibson, ...
I have NO idea how these companies do financially. But the guitars certainly seem to BE OUT THERE. Shops have them hanging on the walls for demo and sale, artists are seen playing them left and right, etc. You can't cut a fart in this world without seeing somebody playing one of these brands.
HOW DO THEY DO IT ? The products may suck, but they are OUT THERE. How do they do it ...
Seems to me that every Ovation "innovation" no matter how cool it may be, actually pushes the brand farther into a niche position and away from the main stream acoustic buying public.
A Takamine dreadnaught called "Legend" with an Ovation logo on the headstock would outsell the real Ovation Legend 10 to 1. How is that ??? |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | It is surprising how little other musicians know about Ovations. Here's an example. We have a stand-in drummer who sits in now and then. He is a professional musician who teaches percussion at the college level. He is also a professaional sound engineer, composer, and alsmo plays keyboards and a little guitar. A student asked his opinion about a guitar in the $200-$300 range, to which he had not yet replied. When he heard me warming up, he came over and listened for awhile and started asking me a bunch of questions. He said he recognized it as an Ovation with a plastic back, couldn't believe how beautiful it sounded, and asked if he should recommend it to his student. I had to tell him that what he saw in a catalog in his student's price range was not the same guitar I was playing, which was the custom Adamas 1187 SSB cutaway. It was surprising how little he knew about Ovation products. Sure, he knew the name, the look, the odd shape, and that they'd been around for over 40 years, but all he knew about current models was the one or two low priced models he saw hidden on one page of the Musician's Friend catalog, and before then, he would never consider recommending one because, in his mind, it was just too different. He thought the plastic back was simply an effort to cut cost and make a less expensive guitar. He had no knowlegde of the engineering principles behind the guitar's shape and materials. Although we're fanatics and take this knowledge for granted, most players, and particularly those just starting out, don't have a clue about what Ovation really stands for. |
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Location: Northwest Arkansas | alpep - 2012-10-18 4:29 PM
I don't see any $300 collings or santa cruz guitars
I've only seen a few Collings and I've NEVER seen a Santa Cruz. Nice guitars. Very nice. From what I've heard. Al. How do you get flatpickers to play Ovation? My CL2079AX plays better(flatpicking) than my D-35. You can actually go past the 5th fret. I wonder if you guys took your guitars, the great ones, to these festivals, like the Walnut Valley Festival Winfield, KS. It is not just a bluegrass festival. Guys plying harp guitars. Martin, Taylor, Gallagher, even Larivee' are there. You can do side by sides too. I played every brand in the building. I came out with a better attitude about my Adamas. Not one of those guitars plays as well as my Adamas. They're loud. But they don't sound close to my Adamas. Just a thought. A lot of these guitars were $3000+. There are very serious guitarists there. It would be nice to see an Ovation/Adamas presence in that room. Most of those guys laugh when I tell them I play an Adamas. 50 bucks says they've never played one. It's that plastic bowl thing. I love the contour bowl. Take some of those. Do some side by side comparisons. The Martin and Taylor booths are across from one another. Get a spot and put out your "Great" guitars. I think you would have some converts if you did that. Just my two cents worth. |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Ovations are 'different'. Many folks don't like (or have the sense of self-confidence required) to be 'different'.
Maybe an oversimplification. But I'm pretty simple.
IMO, we appreciate the difference because we're 'different'. .....and that covers most of us I've met or come to know over the years.
That and we're just damned practical people who look at the facts rather than the fads.....but that's not simple. |
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Location: SE Michigan | AdamasW597:
"50 bucks says they've never played one. It's that plastic bowl thing."
Bingo. This is what people think of when they think Ovation, and it is largely viewed as being cheap. Kind of like what people think of plastic tubas that you see in high school bands. That is why I think that if Ovation is going to stay married to the plastic bowl design, they need to play it up as an advantage rather than just a way to build a guitar for less money. I think the best way to do this would be play up synthetic materials like Rain Song and CA guitars do. Come up with a synthetic guitar that maintains tone and playability, but more importantly do it at a Celebrity (or near) price point. We all know how great the high end Adamas models are. the problem is that when other guitarists look at a $3000 Adamas, all they see is the plastic bowl and they are inclined to thumb their noses at it. Like wise I would have a very hard time paying more than a grand for an Epiphone or Mexican Fender. Now if you can find a way to build a guitar with those Adamas attributes, particularly the carbon sound board, into a guitar that sells for $600-$1000, I think you would really have something to make Ovation stand out in a positive way.
Edited by Brian T 2012-10-19 11:30 AM
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New guitars from New Hartford?
