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Location: Orlando, FL | gmaslin - 2013-09-13 10:30 PM
please accept the possibility that you might be hearing what you want to hear. This is not a condemnation as much as an acknowledgement of our humanity.
Amen brother! The unwashed masses of the OFC are wrong yet again! Need we go back to the AGF for confirmation?? One brave man with an opinion and a sh!tload of bluster has single-handedly called the collective bluff of the resident cork sniffers.
No matter that it may be easy to offer grandiose wagers with strangers on the internet and then cry coward when nobody takes you seriously. Hey, whenever I hear someone offer to put up $10,000 on the internet (or in person actually), I KNOW they're serious and they must be right!
This is kind of like saying someone who has been a car enthusiast and/or mechanic for 40 years can tell the difference from Hyundai and a Corvette by the sound of the engine, or what the seats feel like!
Honestly. I don't know why I bother to ready this forum almost daily! |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Designzilla - 2013-09-13 8:08 PM
Honestly. I don't know why I bother to read this forum almost daily!
You need to Post almost daily... we do need daily sanity.
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| FlySG 'Guitar' is a snob in his own way This and the other comments made in your post #474886 are insightful and worthy of highlighting. 'Guitar' does take a perverse and provocative approach to bait his victims but on the other hand, how better to smack the delusional into a better focus of reality? I don't think he does this as a public service, I believe he derives great joy from this myth-busting and is one reason things become somewhat vitriolic wherever he or others like him show up. It's very hard to give up tenets that comfort you and are validated by others so it is natural to form an immediate dislike for someone who disturbs this false panacea. 'Guitar' is a scouring pad that society needs to remove the undesirable build up but repetitive and indiscriminate applications of him can definitely ruin what is delicate and special. I was in electronic labs during the late 70's when numbers began ruling amp design. So many of my colleagues were blinded by the pursuit of lower THD and they kept increasing the negative feedback in their circuits, completely ignoring the fact that they were choking off the musicality of the sound. The results? Soundstages collapsed, unpleasant higher order harmonics were emphasized and music became offensive at higher decibel levels. It took some bold Canadian sound researchers to get us back on track and the entire entertainment industry owes them a great deal for that.
Guitar
It's all well and good to inform us of crockery but in my opinion, you go wrong when you try to define other peoples values. Let the emperors have their suits and laugh at them in silence. Measuring instruments are improving all the time, so are our methodologies and focus points. We are already past the point where we can see things on scopes that most people can't hear but that doesn't mean it can't be heard by someone. Why shouldn't people be allowed to form an opinion on what they value as 'best'?
Edited by gmaslin 2013-09-14 6:46 AM
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Location: Flahdaw | I'm just a hillbilly, backwoods, hole-digger with **** for brains. I really NEED an instruction manual for getting thru life and internet forums. Thanks for all your help. (I sure wish your posts didn't have all them big words, tho....) |
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Location: Utah | gmaslin - 2013-09-14 6:42 AM
FlySG 'Guitar' is a snob in his own way This and the other comments made in your post #474886 are insightful and worthy of highlighting. 'Guitar' does take a perverse and provocative approach to bait his victims but on the other hand, how better to smack the delusional into a better focus of reality?
This is just bullshit, and I stopped reading the rest of your post to respond.
One of the fun aspects of Ovation guitars is that despite the apparent common design, there are in fact many different eras, materials, designs, bracings, woods, truss rods, bowl constructions, finish types, etc etc etc etc. The fans here discuss and debate these things pretty much continuously.
It would be idiocy to say or think there is no tonal difference between the different models. Sometimes it is subtle, sometimes it is not.
Guitar shows his ignorance and arrogance by blustering in here making not only stupid assertions but then insulting members for things he doesn't even know their position on. He calls us corksniffers, yet has not read the many threads about the Academy model. There is no lower design point or materials point in the Ovation history than this model, yet it is hailed as a great sounding guitar, sounding and playing better than it has any right to. Or the T models. People marvel at how it is one of the very best sounding Ovations, yet it was designed as a modest price alternative.
And people have wondered why the TX in side by side comparisons doesn't sound like the T. Could it be the thicker top? Or the thicker finish? Or maybe the neck construction and neck joint? These differences might be appreciable or practical.....
What sounds "better" is always subject to personal preference. Does a particular $3000 guitar sound better than a particular $300 guitar? Every person has their own opinion.
Have you sat in a room with 20 or 30 Ovations/Adamas guitars representing the whole history of the company and played them all weekend? I have, as have many or most of the members here. Have you been to one of the Road Shows the factory put on a couple summers ago? They had a cross section of current production guitars to play. Have you gone to a guitar shop and played several different guitars from one manufacturer to compare them?
I'll tell you a secret. The $10,000 Martin didn't sound nearly as good to me as the $1,000 or $3,000 model. I'm not sure I liked it more than the $500 model. There were some custom Ovation/Adamas guitars I've played which, while nice guitars, didn't speak to me despite being incredibly beautiful looking instruments which carried price tags well above the $3,000 number Guitar threw around. I like my used guitars as much as the ones I bought new. My 21 yr old daughter plays far better than I do, even though I've played for 45 years.
Another secret. The pros and former touring pros I've met have been unbelievable kind and supportive of hacks like me.
One of our members here collects Applauses, and we like him anyway.
I don't know if Guitar is a troll or just an ignorant arrogant ***, his behavior here supports both conclusions. |
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Location: Always beautiful canyon country of Utah | I careth not about all this verbiage. Let Guitar play what he wants. I have my Adamas and for me there is no other guitar like it in this universe. End of discussion. |
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Location: Utah | Guitar - 2013-09-14 12:29 AM
guys spending mid four to low five figures on an instrument who play to the level of a mildly dedicated junior high schooler... They will criticize someone ... yet demonstrate absolute no proficiency as players beyond the most 101 level stuff
I guess I'm not worthy of an opinion on how something sounds until I attain your lofty level of skill. |
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Location: Utah | Guitar - 2013-09-11 10:13 PM
The fact that right now, a kid with a couple hundred bucks can buy a decent used- or in some cases, new- import Ovation is great for playing musicians, perhaps a bit annoying to 'collectors' who are more concerned with the perception of other people than they are about making sounds.
This is the only true thing I think you've posted. And, you have grossly misunderstood the membership here by ASSuming we are "'collectors' who are more concerned with the perception of other people than they are about making sounds.". |
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| BobG Thanks for all your help. (I sure wish your posts didn't have all them big words, tho....) Please accept my apologies. List the words you had trouble with and I will find a more common synonym or look them up for you if that is easier for you.
FlySG
My prior reply to you had no sarcasm, I really thought that you made some good points in that post. I suspect 'Guitar' believes the vast majority of guitar 'collectors' don't play, don't have a decent ear and don't deserve the privilege of owning what they do. He has admitted to having to cut the check when he is wrong so why the angst? If you or any others reading here, really are that confident in your claims you will take the challenge and his money. If enough people beat the test, he will eventually concede and stop challenging/annoying the conoscenti. I seriously considered doing this myself but my recent ear exam has confirmed I can't hear very well past 13.8KHz. This is perhaps slightly better than average for my age. My pitch identification skills are still excellent in my bandwidth range but I don't hear as well as I used to. For those thinking of taking this test, your odds will be better in the un-amplified part. Keep in mind also that a $300 guitar can still have a good guitar tech work on them to make 'em better. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Funny how you keep speaking for Guitar, almost like you know each other.... |
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Location: Utah | gmaslin - 2013-09-14 11:31 AM
I suspect 'Guitar' believes the vast majority of guitar 'collectors' don't play, don't have a decent ear and don't deserve the privilege of owning what they do.
I'd be interested in what you/he believe it is that makes a person deserving of the privilege of owning what they do.
gmaslin - 2013-09-14 11:31 AM
He has admitted to having to cut the check when he is wrong so why the angst? If you or any others reading here, really are that confident in your claims you will take the challenge and his money.
Guitar ran from Bobbo at high speed as soon as someone legitimately took him up on his offer.
gmaslin - 2013-09-14 11:31 AM
If enough people beat the test, he will eventually concede and stop challenging/annoying the conoscenti.
What an arrogant attitude he has! What makes him the arbiter of who deserves to own something, or what one is allowed to like or prefer? Why should anyone have to beat some vague test of his concoction? He made a direct claim, actually at least 2 of them, and then he wants us to disprove it or else he contemptuously declares us wrong?
Does he have some 6 sigma intelligence or some secret knowledge which makes him a superior judge?
His aesthetic is tone:dollar, based on his definition of what good tone is. He has every right to his value system, but it doesn't make him right or better. It doesn't make his cheap import better or worse than someone else's expensive guitar.
MY aesthetic is maximum joy for available dollars, based on MY definition of joy. It doesn't make me right or better. It doesn't make my more expensive guitars better or worse than my cheap guitars.
A 1978 Chevette could get me to work in the same amount of time and burning the same amount of gas as a 2014 Audi A8. Some might love the cheap cost of the old Chevette, some might get great joy out of the Audi. Neither position is right or wrong, better or worse. Does the Audi driver have to have exceptional driving skill to deserve to own it?
I would say I hate to be the one to to smack the delusional into a better focus of reality, or to be the scouring pad that society needs to remove the undesirable build up, but I am actually enjoying pointing out his hypocrisy, ignorance, and arrogance.
gmaslin - 2013-09-14 11:31 AM
Keep in mind also that a $300 guitar can still have a good guitar tech work on them to make 'em better.
And if you/he were a person who read some threads here before throwing insults left and right you'd see we discuss how a big part of the difference between price points is the amount of craftsmanship which goes into the final setup. Fret leveling, fret dressing, nut slots, truss rod and saddle adjustments. Your out-of-the-box $300 import becomes a much more expensive instrument once you've paid the luthier a couple hundred dollars to make it better. It is no longer a $300 import, is it? And put it in a nice hard shell case for another $100+, which comes at no additional cost with the USA guitar. Suddenly your $300 import is a $600 or $700 guitar.
I presume Guitar intended to salt his sample of the $299 import with an instrument carefully worked over. |
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Location: Da Windy City | FlySig - 2013-09-14 12:53 PM
Guitar ran from Bobbo at high speed as soon as someone legitimately took him up on his offer.
You're either mentally retarded or have the reading comprehension of a small child.
Bobbo did not take my up on my offer. He proposed an odd counter-offer that didn't address the point I was making. And I have no interest whatsoever in betting on whether someone who's been playing the same guitar for years can hear one from the other. His bet proposed he could taste his moms apple pie from 3 other random apple pies, not whether the generic apple pie tasted any different from the much more expensive brand name.
Comprende?
Amusingly, no.
You no comprende.
To a couple scientifically illiterate retards, it was crushing evidence of the strenghtn of his position that it was rejected. To everyone else, even proposing that in this context shows how dumb the guy is.
Notice how he hasn't been heard from since... If he is? Bet's still out there and my PM box remains empty.
You're allowed to have opinions but you look like a retard when you start making up your own facts. The problem with the internet is, it's all right here for people to go back and read for themselves.
FlySig - 2013-09-14 12:53 PM
but I am actually enjoying pointing out his hypocrisy, ignorance, and arrogance.
It's not like idiots are aware that they're idiots. They truly believe they're out blazing a path in this world and really holding their own but just a little hint: you've certainly tried to do that, but you haven't done it very well. The simplest way to do it would be to come and pick up this ten grand I have ready to demonstrate your belief system is garbage.
It's gone a little something like this.
(excuses)
(excuses)
(lamenting)
(excuses)
Me: Well, I mean, the criteria are fair and directly align with the narratives a lot of people claim. The testing criteria are valid whether you comprehend that or not. Wanna come get the money?
(blabber)
(excuses)
Me: This is getting a little old. PM box is over <-- There. Let me know.
You: I'VE BEEN ENJOYING POINTING OUT WHAT AN IGNORANT HYPOCRITE YOU ARE!
Me: PM box remains empty 
I will, however, concede arrogance. It's my natural mechanism when in the presence of large groups of people who believe incredibly dumb ****. Latest polling shows that more Americans STILL believe in Angels than the Darwinian principles of evolution. We got a long way to go to become a rational and enlightened society. Until then, a dumb population is a marketers wet dream.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-14 1:46 PM
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Location: Da Windy City | darkbarguitar - 2013-09-14 12:06 PM
Funny how you keep speaking for Guitar, almost like you know each other....
I don't know him, he doesn't know me... Apparently, we've drawn some of the same conclusions in life by observing the behavior of idiots.
But it seemz like ya gat yerself a conspirasah!
Ya figgered it out!
Muppet.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-14 1:25 PM
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Location: Flahdaw | Guitar - 2013-09-14 2:24 PM
I don't know him, he doesn't know me... Apparently, we've drawn some of the same conclusions in life by observing the behavior of idiots.
Yeah, I kinda assumed growing up in your home musta been tough. Lotta anger and abuse? |
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Location: Da Windy City | darkbarguitar - 2013-09-14 1:42 PM
Guitar - 2013-09-14 2:24 PM
I don't know him, he doesn't know me... Apparently, we've drawn some of the same conclusions in life by observing the behavior of idiots.
Yeah, I kinda assumed growing up in your home musta been tough. Lotta anger and abuse?
This makes a lot of sense and sure is an insightful, relevant contribution to this discussion.
I, for one, hope you make great contributions to the gene pool because assuredly, your children will grow up to help advance mankind.
FFS. "Hare, hunter, field... " |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | "You Wanna Bet" seems like the last retort of someone who cannot make a cogent argument for their position with evidence and logic.
I might add that Money is such an arbitrary concept that really has no intrinsic value....
Let's meet and bet something tangible...
Y'know? Cars and Guitars.
Or maybe Fingers or Teeth or Ears.
Let's bring some guitars, meet in a warehouse on a Sunday when it is quiet...
I'll bring my cleaver and channel-locks. 
Edited by Old Man Arthur 2013-09-14 2:02 PM
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Location: Flahdaw | Hehehe...what's funny is you're spending hours constructing long winded diatribes on meaningless bullshit, while I spend seconds constructing a stinkbomb. Both have equal relevance. No one's interested in your boring dissertations (except your friend, gmaslin, winky wink), but by all means, keep wasting your life. |
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| Sound is very subjective, and always subject to argument. That being said, I am guessing that there are quite a few people here with good enough ears to tell the different between your average $300 import and your average $3,000 U.S.-made Ovation in a blind test.
You might find some exceptions. I have played a few imports that sounded pretty good. But one thing that was pretty clearly different in all cases was build quality. U.S.-made Ovations are really extremely well-built guitars, even for their higher price point. The imports are not all bad but there is a noticeable difference. |
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Location: Da Windy City | arthurseery - 2013-09-14 2:00 PM
"You Wanna Bet" seems like the last retort of someone who cannot make a cogent argument for their position with evidence and logic.
Wagering is the last resort when all logic has failed and people continue to believe dumb things.
It's a great way to shine a light on their beliefs but more particularly, how fragilly held those beliefs are when 'free espousal' doesn't cut the mustard.
They'll say "THAT'S THE DUMBEST THING I'VE HEARD IN ALL MY YEARS ON THIS FORUM" yet you'd think if that were true, they'd have no problem gathering up a significant sum of money that says it's absolutely true (or, they're absolutely incorrect).
So, no. Your assessment there- just like most of the assessments made int his thread by people from 'your side'- is stupid. Wagers aren't the last resort of a desperate position. They're the last resort of a correct position in the face of people who desperately want to continue believing stupid bullshit in the face of evidence that demonstrates they are incorrect.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-14 2:28 PM
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Location: Da Windy City | darkbarguitar - 2013-09-14 2:04 PM
Hehehe...what's funny is you're spending hours constructing long winded diatribes on meaningless bullshit, while I spend seconds constructing a stinkbomb. Both have equal relevance. No one's interested in your boring dissertations (except your friend, gmaslin, winky wink), but by all means, keep wasting your life.
"Hehehehe", it probably takes me less time to construct a 3000 word post than it does you to make a 100 word post.
You're pretty clearly not a very bright man. Might be a swell guy, great uncle or dad but in this context, dumber than a sack of hammers.
The reason you think my words are 'meaningless' is the same reason this also appears 'meaningless' to you:
While this is something you completely understand.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-14 2:28 PM
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Location: Flahdaw | You're having a conversation with about 4 people on this 8500 member forum and you think you're changing the world. Sorry, but that makes you the hammer.
Edited by BobG 2013-09-14 2:28 PM
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Location: Da Windy City | darkbarguitar - 2013-09-14 2:28 PM
You're having a conversation with about 4 people on this 8500 member forum and you think you're changing the world. Sorry, but that makes you the hammer.
Great assessment. Spot on.
You're an insightful man.
(and good job with the edit changing "your" to "you're". Wouldn't want to confirm any stereotypes now, would me)
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-14 2:32 PM
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| Guitar I, for one, hope you make great contributions to the gene pool because assuredly, your children will grow up to help advance mankind. Ouch! I should point out his wife might still save the outcome.
BobG
Well, from the reply above you may have noted some distinctions in our manners but philosophically, you are correct to point out that I am in his camp.
FlySG
Kudos to you! You have understood my caveat about these tests perfectly but they are still winnable by a good set of ears and experience with the guitars. No matter how good the setup, the soundboard will still profile harmonics according to its material and undershape and that is the key to succeeding the challenge. I'm sure if I keep talking, 'guitar' will start to hate me too but to address the who deserves what question, don't you see the perversity of a person without the potential, commitment or desire for making beautiful sounds in the possession of an instrument capable of it? It's the same obnoxious ostentation of a person who purchases a Ferrari and never takes it above 60MPH. These kind of things must offend 'Guitar' to his deepest core and even to me, there is something offensive to Karma about them. If I were a craftsman making the pinnacle of my ability, there would be a twinge of sadness knowing it would end up being underutilized in the hands of someone who will never make it do what it was meant to do. Money has become the ugly arbiter and daily, people trade away not only their own life's meaning and purpose but those of others as well. This has the potential to become a really heavy and unpleasant discussion so I will stop here.
Edited by gmaslin 2013-09-14 2:39 PM
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Location: Flahdaw | I've managed to annoy you, which was my only goal. Hooray me!!!! |
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Location: Suisun City, Ca | arthurseery - 2013-09-13 6:08 PM AstroDan - 2013-09-13 3:25 PM I'm going to dump the over-priced, crappy American-made O's I own and get me a quantity of imports. I'll trade you a FINE Chinese Cedar-topped Contour Bowl Celebrity for that crappy '07C you've got.  This post is useless without pics...  
Note*** Sounds/plays/feels etc no better than anything else, really~! |
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so sad
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