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Location: south east Michigan | Or doughnuts and cinnamon buns Bobbo.
It's obvious you don't know a damn thing about doughnuts and cinnamon buns.
Edited by Slipkid 2012-10-18 8:00 AM
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Location: Flahdaw | Or innovation and crustaceans |
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Location: Upper Left USA | But you do know goatee's... |
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Location: SoCal | But he knows llamas....... |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | STOP IT !!!
You don't buy cinnamon rolls in a freaking DONUT shop. For krist sake Bobbo, you know better. |
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Location: NJ | last time I ask you nitwits for ideas |
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JohnW63 - 2012-10-14 1:18 PMThe problem with Ovation, as I see it, is that they were once big innovators, but have really don't nothing new in 20+ years..
Wrong.
stonebobbo - 2012-10-14 2:25 PMThis the clearly the most ignorant statement I've read here in many years, perhaps ever.
Correct.
John, you're arguing about innovation, yet in almost every post you point out the real problem without acknowledging it.
The only place Ovation has failed to be innovative is in their MARKETING.
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Location: Suisun City, Ca | JohnW63 - 2012-10-17 6:03 PM AstroDan, A 302, ( Let's call it a 5 liter for modern terms ) came out of Detroit in about 1967. Probably about 225hp and similar torque numbers. Over time, new bits were dropped on it and the HP went up. Of course it still WEIGHS quite a lot. All cast iron. Today, you can get a twin turbo 2.0 liter that has those same numbers. 200hp. On a VW. Since it's in a sporty car with paddle shifters and low profile wheels, the VW GTI sells for about $24,000. I belive that engine can be had in some of VWs less costly cars as well. It also gets 30mph on the highway, going 80mph to Las Vegas for almost 3 hours. Ford used that same basic block for a good 30 years with just bolt on changes. It certainly has longevity, but it was VERY long in the tooth and outperformed by much more modern and efficient engines. Ford was LONG overdue for a change. Enter the EcoBoost. Now they have a 2 liter engine that gets the same performance as your 302. Welcome to the 21st century, Ford. Yes! My point has been proven. Both for Ford and, I think, Ovation. We're doomed
Edited by AstroDan 2012-10-18 9:40 AM
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Location: Boise, Idaho | alpep - 2012-10-09 10:18 AM
It is my understanding that Fender has named a new product manager for Ovation and he is interested with meeting and getting some ideas about what is important to Ovation guitar players.
I will let you know any details when I can.
It is really frustrating when people, politician or otherwise, don't answer the question posed to them. After griping about the debate last night, I thought this morning that I would go back and look at what Al originally asked and then check to see if we answered it in the next 6 pages. I'm not sure the new product manager would get a good sense of what was "important to Ovation guitar players", except that we must have debate fever--we won't answer the damn question, but will bitch at each other until no one can remember what the question was.
What's important to me as an Ovation player is that Ovation maintains a large variety of good quality guitars. I could care less about innovation unless it leads to my second point.
Second, I would like to see those guitars on stage and on TV, not so much so that I will buy more, but so that the company continues to prosper so that I have the opportunity to buy more. |
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Location: Flahdaw | JohnW-
You stated "The problem with Ovation, as I see it, is that they were once big innovators, but have really don't nothing new in 20+ years." Bobbo has pointed out many examples but you won't accept them as innovative. Not much can be done about changing YOUR perceptions if you refuse to acknowledge them. You point to this as the big reason Ovation is "struggling."
You were asked several times in these 7 pages of posts to point out an acoustic guitar company who, in the last 20 years, has introduced huge innovations that have resulted in great sales. You have successfully dodged the question so far. The reason is YOU CAN'T. The fact is that Ovation has been FAR more innovative than any other acoustic guitar maker that you could name.
Lack of innovation has NOTHING to do with Ovations recent struggles. Ovation is building a GREAT guitar, with GREAT features, at a very fair price. Why aren't they selling 100,000 units a year? Imho...it HAS to be a marketing problem. It's the ONLY explanation. (other than a sucky economy)
Edited by BobG 2012-10-18 9:50 AM
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | alpep - 2012-10-17 3:39 PM
when I speak of new hartford I am not talking about imports. IMHO some companies have made a great transition from USA production to "off shore" IMHO Ovation is not one of them. it is spotty at best. IMHO the New Hartford built instruments are superior.
...
I see tons of pretty guitars out there with pretty tops made by probably the same factory in Korea and china. most sound like cardboard. most play like bricks. most have preamps that are prone to feedback and sound tinny.
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Reputation and word of mouth are sometimes your best sales force.
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if they went to the local GC or ash and played a celebrity or korean import
I am positive they would be disappointed
The current state of the mid level guitars is not good IMHO
Unfortunately, what you write is probably why Ovation guitars don't get the respect they deserve. Since the imports in a GC or Sam Ash is what most people will encounter and the QC for these mid-level models is spotty, then Ovation's reputation suffers. Word of mouth can also be a company's worst enemy.
What you say reminds me of the state of Apple computers in the late 80s and early 90s. John Sculley had led the BoD in the ouster of Steve Jobs and the company was well on the road to the mediocrity Jobs hated. Their fan base continued to rally behind the product, but in side-by-side tests with PCs, the performance of the Apple computers were slower, yet cost more. It wasn't until Jobs returned to the company that they surged to their former position as the market leader. But, had they continued to offer mediocre products, they would have continued to flounder. But, it was Jobs complete devotion to technical superiority and quality that revived the reputation of the company.
Corporate bean-counters don't care about the company's reputation or the quality of the product. IMO, it was a mistake Ovation's part to start down the path of low-cost guitars if they were not going to make sure the quality matched those made in the USA.
This is also reminiscent of the story of the man who said no to Wal-Mart. If you're unfamiliar with it, here's a link to the story. It's a long read, but very educational and worth the time. (The Man Who Said No to Wal-Mart) It's a story about one CEO's choice between their company's product quality and long-term reputation vs. increased sales in the low-cost market segment.
Edited by DanSavage 2012-10-18 10:06 AM
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | darkbarguitar - 2012-10-18 7:47 AM
Lack of innovation has NOTHING to do with Ovations recent struggles. Ovation is building a GREAT guitar, with GREAT features, at a very fair price. Why aren't they selling 100,000 units a year? Imho...it HAS to be a marketing problem. It's the ONLY explanation. (other than a sucky economy)
IMO, alpep nailed it when he wrote that Ovation's reputation suffered because the word of mouth advertising is based upon the low-cost, poor quality guitars most people encounter when they visit a GC or Sam Ash.
No amount of good marketing can overcome that kind of bad reputation. |
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Location: SE Michigan | My 2 cents to Ovation:
Build a guitar like Paul Moody said:
1. Really good acoustic sound, doesn't have to a "10", I'd settle for a "7".
2. Durable - build on Ovation's experience with carbon graphite, this represents an area where Ovation could lead the pack and be an inovator.
3. Great playability, again doesn't have to a "10", I'd settle for a "7".
4. Good price --- not cheap, just good. To me this means $1000 or less.
One area that I think is ripe for improvement is electronics. As nice as the OP-Pro is, heavy handed players like myself still get a ton of piezo quack from the standard Ovation electronics. Takamine has made major advances with acoustic guitar electronics, this shouldn't be so hard for Ovation to do.
I would ad that bling means little to me personally, I prefer stark looking guitars and would rather see the money spent on playability and the other issues listed above. I do however recognize that bling sells, or so it would seem. The whole Elite T product line seems like a good way to produce a very passable instrument at a reasonably low cost. Now do it with carbon fiber and better electronics.
BTW I plan to purchase a DS778 DX (Elite T Longneck) soon, it represents a lot of what I want at a reasonable price. I just wish I could get a carbon top and better electronics.
Edited by Brian T 2012-10-18 10:14 AM
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Location: closely held secret | DanSavage - 2012-10-18 8:00 AMThis is also reminiscent of the story of the man who said no to Wal-Mart. If you're unfamiliar with it, here's a link to the story. It's a long read, but very educational and worth the time. ( The Man Who Said No to Wal-Mart) It's a story about one CEO's choice between their company's product quality and long-term reputation vs. increased sales in the low-cost market segment.
Great read. I wish Ovation had followed that path. |
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Location: Lebanon, TN | I'm probably a bad target for the new marketing team for reasons that will become obvious but here's my 2 cent's (tuppence).
I fell in love with Ovations in the late 1970's To me that generation of round hole's (Legend and up) is where my emotional heart is built on. My first one owned was a 1617 Legend. I loved that it was different to the Yamaha's and Martins that were around but more so that it sounded so good to me at that time acoustically and pleased the sound guy at the folk clubs because he could plug it in rather than have to find another mic. Sadly that 1617 was traded in for a Gibson Sonex and a Precision Bass for my brother years ago and then marriage and kids killed the budget stone dead.
I continued to lust after Ovations and in particular the Adamas. In 2000 I bought a W597 new on a trip to the US. Loved the mid bowl, adore the Optima (still the best built in chromatic tuner implementation I have ever seen) and the Cobalt Blue just blew me a way (no pun intended). Since 2000 I have had approximately 30+ ovation/adamii through my hands, stabilising at around 14 in stock now. I think I know what I like and sadly for Fender it's the early 80's and late 90's models from second hand sources including friends here.
I love the vintage of KBar and A-brace, finish cracks and all. I love a glassy neck better than natural finish. I have a single 12 string left now and its a Adamas II custom order with Optima and glassy 2 piece walnut neck. I am an unashamed fan of bling. Have had the stark looking guitars and a couple of LX models, and nice as they were they were ignored when it came time to pick something up so were passed on. Learned my lesson that black is hard to keep clean. I have a schizophrenic relationship with sunburst, but prefer natural and the adamas 'colourful' finishes.
I suspect that what will be left for me in terms of future NEW purchase from New Hartford would be high end custom order (and Al and I still bounce a project around for me to commit to sometime soon), or vintage re-issues.
Now we've ruled me out as a big target customer  I bought my daughter an old custom balladeer to learn on when she was 14. She then traded 'up' to a new Celebrity as she didnt like the musty old smell :-). When she was 16 she told me she wanted a Martin because that was a real guitar and her friends didnt like playing the plastic guitar when they handed it around at gigs. I bought her a D-15 (second hand). Now aged 22 it sits in her apartment most of the time, when she plays out she comes over and borrows my 2006-KOA because she loves the look and sound of it. When she saw the 1981 1614-1 folklore I just bought the other day she asked if I would give it to her. When I asked her why, she said because it sounds amazing and the open slot and wider neck was beautiful to look at and play and the whole look was so unique. I pointed out that at 30 yrs old it had seen more life than her and she replied, well I wish they made them like that new. Seems wisdom does come with age!
I echo what people have said about exposure and marketing. Get some product placement to get Adamii/Ovations on the new Nashville TV show, get them played on stage at CMA Fest, Camp out at South by Southwest and get every new band to come through your tent. I can't find a top end NEW Ovation anywhere in Nashville. Jonmark may tell me I am not looking in the right places, but seriously there is nothing around here that would allow me or any musician in the Nashville area to know anything about higher quality Ovation product other than old guys like me play them in church.
As I said not sure this ramble has been useful but I wanted to share my thoughts.
Edited by Stuart Miller 2012-10-18 10:54 AM
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Location: Flahdaw | DanSavage - 2012-10-18 11:09 AM
darkbarguitar - 2012-10-18 7:47 AM
Lack of innovation has NOTHING to do with Ovations recent struggles. Ovation is building a GREAT guitar, with GREAT features, at a very fair price. Why aren't they selling 100,000 units a year? Imho...it HAS to be a marketing problem. It's the ONLY explanation. (other than a sucky economy)
IMO, alpep nailed it when he wrote that Ovation's reputation suffered because the word of mouth advertising is based upon the low-cost, poor quality guitars most people encounter when they visit a GC or Sam Ash.
No amount of good marketing can overcome that kind of bad reputation.
I don't think Ovation's low cost alternatives at Samash are any worse than the low cost Ibanez's, Epiphones, Fenders, or Yamaha's. You only get so much for $300. But that brings up a good point....all of those guitar makers have a hard time up-pricing a customer to a $1000 plus guitar. Can you even imagine considering a $1800 Ibanez?
One problem may have been even putting the Ovation name on a $300 guitar and putting their reputation at risk to begin with. Those POS's should have always stayed Applause's. If "Ovation" always stood for their better built guitars they wouldn't have to try to explain those crappy guitars selling at Samash. That's why Gibson HAS Epiphone, fer christsakes.
"Word of mouth" advertising has NEVER been that great for Ovation (at least for 20 years). They've always had haters, non-beleivers, and poopoo-ers. But yeah, it sure doesn't help when all the customers have ever seen are $300 POS's.
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | bkok999 - 2012-10-18 9:13 AM BTW I plan to purchase a DS778 DX (Elite T Longneck) soon, it represents a lot of what I want at a reasonable price. I just wish I could get a carbon top and better electronics. you can get a carbon top with better electronics. Several of us have Adamas longnecks. it's called a special order. |
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Location: SoCal | That WAS a great read.... |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Mark in Boise - 2012-10-18 9:43 AM I'm not sure the new product manager would get a good sense of what was "important to Ovation guitar players", except that we must have debate fever--we won't answer the damn question, but will bitch at each other until no one can remember what the question was. I did give it some thought in an earlier post . . . hybrids, like the VXT and, arguably, the EA Vipers, and I'll even add another. How about further development of an SSB type model that moves the "acoustic guitar for electric players" target down the road even further? |
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Location: SoCal | immoody - 2012-10-18 9:08 AM
That WAS a great read....
Referring to The Man Who Said No To Walmart.....
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Location: Phoenix AZ | May sound counter intuitive ... but asking the customer (or the fam club) is the wrong approach. Or at least premature.
Ovation (rather, Fender) need to ask THEMSELVES - "What Do We Want To Be ???"
- what do we want to be associated with ?
- what do we want to be known for ?
- what emotions do we want the mention of our name to evoke ?
Write your own Obituary !!! Then go make a plan to EXECUTE all the things you have written about ...
Only THEN can you get to the detailed level of WHAT you should build and HOW you should promote, market and sell it.
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Location: Texas | Prof...
I was told a month or so ago, Ovation will still build you a EA Viper, and at about the same $$$ from a decade ago...But COME ON Ovation...why are you still sticking that Viper Pre-Amp in the $3K YM63??? It appears that they built a new Viper around an archaic pre-amp. |
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | darkbarguitar - 2012-10-18 8:50 AM
I don't think Ovation's low cost alternatives at Samash are any worse than the low cost Ibanez's, Epiphones, Fenders, or Yamaha's. You only get so much for $300. But that brings up a good point....all of those guitar makers have a hard time up-pricing a customer to a $1000 plus guitar. Can you even imagine considering a $1800 Ibanez?
One problem may have been even putting the Ovation name on a $300 guitar and putting their reputation at risk to begin with. Those POS's should have always stayed Applause's. If "Ovation" always stood for their better built guitars they wouldn't have to try to explain those crappy guitars selling at Samash. That's why Gibson HAS Epiphone, fer christsakes.
"Word of mouth" advertising has NEVER been that great for Ovation (at least for 20 years). They've always had haters, non-beleivers, and poopoo-ers. But yeah, it sure doesn't help when all the customers have ever seen are $300 POS's.
When you write that the $300 Ovations are just as good, if not better, than other brands in the same price range, I agree 100%.
Now I think you've gotten to the crux of the problem.
At some point, Ovation probably found that the low-cost alternatives, Applause and Matrix, were not selling as well as they liked. So, a marketing decision was made to put the Ovation name onto these low-cost guitars to 'fool' the buying public into thinking that they were buying an Ovation, when what they were really buying was an Applause with the Ovation label slapped onto it.
So, the only way to fix that mistake and rehabilitate the Ovation name is to either stop selling the low-cost guitars under the Ovation name, which isn't very likely, or to bring the QC of these guitars up to the standard of the Amercian-made guitars. |
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | Standingovation - 2012-10-18 10:33 AM
May sound counter intuitive ... but asking the customer (or the fam club) is the wrong approach. Or at least premature.
Ovation (rather, Fender) need to ask THEMSELVES - "What Do We Want To Be ???"
- what do we want to be associated with ?
- what do we want to be known for ?
- what emotions do we want the mention of our name to evoke ?
Write your own Obituary !!! Then go make a plan to EXECUTE all the things you have written about ...
Only THEN can you get to the detailed level of WHAT you should build and HOW you should promote, market and sell it.
Exactly. One of the primary rules in marketing a product is to first know your target audience. Only then can you tailor your product to that market. |
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Location: NJ | I don't see any $300 collings or santa cruz guitars |
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New guitars from New Hartford?
