Posted 2015-12-22 2:20 AM (#519663 - in reply to #519621) Subject: Re: 50th anniv guitars
Joined: February 2013 Posts: 176
Location: Cologne/Germany
moody, p.i. - 2015-12-21 8:26 PM I believe they are the same strings under different packaging.....
When I tried D'Addarios my impression was they were different. But that was just one or two sets before I tried others, only to find that the Adamas line is great for me.
I do not think someone will tell us..... unfortunately
Posted 2015-12-22 9:45 AM (#519675 - in reply to #517904) Subject: Re: 50th anniv guitars
Joined: October 2005 Posts: 4044
Location: Utah
I'm getting old so my memory is imperfect, but I seem to recall somebody (Beal?) saying the Adamas were made by D'Add but use different wire diameters for the core and winding than the D'Add branded strings. I like the Adamas brand better the D'Adds.
Apparently there are only a very few factories where strings are made, with different specs and packaging for the different brands.
Posted 2015-12-22 10:17 AM (#519676 - in reply to #519675) Subject: Re: 50th anniv guitars
Joined: December 2015 Posts: 287
Location: Katmandu
FlySig - 2015-12-22 9:45 AM
I'm getting old so my memory is imperfect, but I seem to recall somebody (Beal?) saying the Adamas were made by D'Add but use different wire diameters for the core and winding than the D'Add branded strings. I like the Adamas brand better the D'Adds.
Apparently there are only a very few factories where strings are made, with different specs and packaging for the different brands.
It's the same with Gibson strings which D'Addario make in their factory according to the specifications given by Gibson.
Posted 2015-12-28 1:27 AM (#519799 - in reply to #517904) Subject: Re: 50th anniv guitars
Joined: March 2015 Posts: 50
I'm just disappointed that the Adamas offering has that Rocketeer/Steampunk look; how fast are those pieces going to snap off on tour use and some a-hole touching the guitar or a rough production assistant mishandling it? Real fast. The price is rough to swallow too, considering I can get models I know sound and play great for half the price of these 50ths. I have little doubt that the 50ths will be so "amazing" and what not, but I already know which models are brilliant sounding and so the fact that DW doesn't realize they are competing with former Adamas models too is a little strange to me, personally. I realize that some people here have less concern for performance and income return on an instrument than I do, but 5 grand for an anniversary guitar that's pumping out 50 per model strikes me as an insane price point. We love these guitars for a reason, but let's be honest. We're not collecting Fenders or Gibsons for a reason. These guitars are supposed to be great quality and are not really prized by most folks the way we prize them. That is, they aren't overinflated in value because some rich people buy them as a retirement project or portfolio item. Ovations were created for players and earners. Adamas for professional players. In terms of price appreciation... it's not there for Os and As, so the premium is a little absurd. The Mill CB is worth what? All of 3,500-5,000 bucks today in mint condition? They only made 75 of those, right? This doesn't feel right to me. I'll just pick up a Rocketeer/Steampunk Adamas in five years for half the price and redo the frets if need be. If DW wants to make a real run at this, they need to get their guitars in the hands of artists and bands that young people respect. This entire Melissa Etheridge/Glen Campbell legacy is not something that turns on new guitar players to the brand, unless they are 70, or really big ME fans. There's not the same sort of rush for these because no one's hero is playing them (young people especially), except for a few folks, who know great unknown players who use these instruments. I calculate how many hours--nine--it will take me to pay for that guitar by using it as a professional tool--which it is--and I take a step back and return to buying second and third hand Adamas on Ebay. I'll step out on the limb for a rare guitar, but that guitar has to have a larger public following to drive its value up as the years go by or there's no point in buying it unless its tone is so immaculate that it gets me a backing gig in... basically Pink Floyd. This isn't exactly the case with Adamas and Ovation. I'm almost always bidding against you guys and maybe 30 other people worldwide who value these instruments. Because they do not appreciate in value, they are bound to depreciate, which is what they do. This makes them a bad investment as both a tool and a stand alone investment, especially for a performer and likewise for a collector. Really disappointed. Almost 5,000 dollars for a guitar that'll be worth 2000 in ten years? Is this a joke? I want to support the new Ovation/Adamas... but the price point is off center. I can buy a new Taylor for 3 grand and beat it on the road and re-sell it for 2 grand, same with Larivee and Collings and pick your recognized manufacturer here. For five grand I can get a custom guitar from a luthier if I link them on my website. If I beat an Ovation or Adamas on the road, I'm losing way more than half of its value because it's not a well marketed and sought after product in any condition. *End of Rant*
Posted 2015-12-28 3:27 AM (#519803 - in reply to #517904) Subject: Re: 50th anniv guitars
Joined: September 2006 Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR
That Adamas is a copy of one of the first designs. LOOK
This one was hanging in the MotherShip collection room for years.
Personally, I think that it is Fugly too. That doesn't make it bad.
I shop on eBay, Reverb, and the OFC. So I won't be buying any of them either.
I have bought two NEW Ovations in my life and I sold them both. (then bought one back)
I believe that the 50's are for people who really want one and have the scratch.
The DW Ovations are in the "if you have to ask the price, you cannot afford it" category.
Much like Larrivee, Santa Cruz, and a bunch of other guitars...
If you are looking for under $500, this ain't it.
Finally, if you are buying guitars to play for years and then resell at a profit...
That is a bad business strategy. All of those $50K guitars on Antiques Roadshow are closet queens.
(Plus... I doubt anybody ever really gets that quarter-million dollars for a blanket)
You won't make a profit on an Adamas because the people that buy Used are looking for a bargain.
BUT... I have seen some Collectors' Editions actually sell for a decent price on eBay recently.
Much like people selling an old Martin D-45... They didn't buy it to sell.
And they had to wait 60 years for them to be valuable. (they were worth more 20 years-ago)
But I can still buy an old $300 Ovation on eBay... Play it for two years, then sell it for $300.
As far as DW making money...
DW owns OVATION. That includes all of that Asian stuff that is actually selling in Asia.
The Reverse-Red and Blue Celebrity's. The DJ Ashba stuff.
Paduak and Bubinga CC whatevers...
All of those factory 2nd AX's and TX's your see on eBay?
They cannot be rejecting ALL of the guitars they make...
Some of them must be selling somewhere.
David... Don't get me wrong. I understand your point, and the Bearclaw Adamas is fugly.
But $5K was the going rate for a new Adamas before the shut-down.
I own 15+ year-old Adamii that play just fine.
And there are nine Adamii on eBay for less than $3K.
And... Sorry for my Rant.
It is early Monday morning and both the Seahawks and the Patriots lost.
Posted 2015-12-28 5:29 AM (#519809 - in reply to #517904) Subject: Re: 50th anniv guitars
Joined: April 2008 Posts: 2985
Location: Sydney, Australia
If I had the spare money I'd buy one. Sadly, not at the moment.
However, five years on the road for an Adamas is a doddle. Might need a re-fret, but tough as old nails. Five years on the road for a $5,000 wood box? Not so good.
Posted 2015-12-28 10:16 AM (#519811 - in reply to #517904) Subject: Re: 50th anniv guitars
Joined: March 2002 Posts: 15664
Location: SoCal
New Guy, what you are saying makes sense but doesn't necessarily represent the real world. Car manufacturers sell hundreds of thousands of new cars every year. And as soon as they are driven off the lot they go down in value. Why buy new when you can buy a used car a coup!e of years old for half the price? I donno, but people do it. For the new car smell? For the warranty? I donno. And people will buy new guitars and pay good money for them.
If you only buy used guitars at a lower price, be grateful for people who buy new. Don't look down on them. Without people who buy new, there would be no used guitars.
Posted 2015-12-28 10:34 AM (#519813 - in reply to #517904) Subject: Re: 50th anniv guitars
Joined: March 2005 Posts: 12755
Location: Boise, Idaho
Face it. People who collect guitars, or most anything, are not "practical". I doubt that any decent financial or retirement planner would recommend you invest in collectible guitars, cars, artwork, models, stamps or anything else that people collect. I know of at least one of us who collected guitars to fund his retirement and last I knew he was still working at his day job.
I think the limited edition guitars are marketed to enthusiasts who have at least a modest amount of discretionary spending money. I suspect that DW and the old Ovation crew also hopes to use them as marketing tools to show what Ovation can do and entice people who can't justify buying one of the limited editions into buying some other Ovations. I also hope that they get them out to artists who will help sell guitars, but I agree with Arthur about the lack of a market for young people. They're all buying devices and getting their music off them.
Posted 2015-12-28 11:06 AM (#519815 - in reply to #519811) Subject: Re: 50th anniv guitars
Joined: December 2014 Posts: 1713
Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota
New Guy, it is entirely your right to your opinions and beliefs, but you are basically calling any of us who LOVE these new 50's stupid, Really???
I think DW has made EVERY move Perfectly! FAR beyond our expectations of a year ago! They are not Fender (Thank the Heavens, or whatever deity you prefer!), and are FRESH!, EXCITING! Committed to EXCELLENCE, and have already proven themselves as one Hellaciously Successful Company! I have the utmost faith in them, and the Creativity, Drive and Commitment, that they are already demonstrating in their first newborn movements and decisions as a new Division.
And Yes, some of us of us, Me Included LOVE that BearClaw Adamas, the #23 Prototype was originated by the Kaman Ovation, it was just never put into Production. I think it is FABULOUS that they put that one in as one of the 50th Anniversary pieces, it shows Honor to the Past with slight modifications to bring it into the Present. It is Incredible that they brought back some of the Old to the New! Incredibly smart move to gain loyalty from any person that loves the Phenomenal Standards and Engineering of the Kaman Dynasty.
I am not on the well to do side, I sold many personal pieces to be able to get in line for one of these 50th pieces, I want to show my appreciation to DW for bringing back our Boys, and our Guitars, I want to support them in anyway possible, and Dang It! I LOVE that BearClaw!! Heck, one of these would pay for half of my new roof!!! But this is important to me, Really important to me.
Not everyone is looking for a On-Stage Performance Guitar, but the Adamas' have been used on stage by every well know Star for decades, they have a long standing history of being tough enough for the road and stage, and I don't expect any less of these new introductions.
There is nothing wrong with waiting until they come down in price a few years from now to get your hands on a used one, but please don't 'poo-poo' those of us who are really excited about this new Launch, and the pieces they are launching. No one is holding a gun to our heads to buy one, we are excited and standing in line for ours!
And that ("Fugly") #23 Prototype, DW can send it here to me for my Nan-Cave, and I will cherish it! Everything about that Guitar is unique, brilliant, and exceptionally made! My Ultimate Holy Grail!!!
Posted 2015-12-28 11:09 AM (#519816 - in reply to #519808) Subject: Re: 50th anniv guitars
Joined: October 2012 Posts: 1034
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Old Man Arthur - 2015-12-27 7:28 PM
Oh... No "young musicians" play guitar anymore...
I'm afraid OMA is right. There are a lot of young players that buy inexpensive guitars over here in Japan, but they aren't exactly "musicians" nor are they "players". Neither am I, but then, I do prefer to have strings on my guitars...check out what's new on the guitar horizon of the future...
What do we call people who are great Kurv players? Guitarists? It's a brave new world!
Posted 2015-12-28 12:13 PM (#519820 - in reply to #517904) Subject: Re: 50th anniv guitars
Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7222
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
I think some are missing the point of what these guitars represent. They are not just "collectors" guitars. They are in fact the first guitars after the reboot. They will undoubtedly be some of the best playing and sounding guitars ever made in that factory because that is what they need to be. This wasn't just a change of ownership, it was a complete reboot. The engineers and luthiers essentially starting from scratch with the knowledge and experience of 50 years of making guitars in their toolbox. DW has something to prove. Just talk to a drummer who actually plays DW Drums and ask about their top-of-the-line models... their "Collectors". You never or hardly ever, hear... "oh they sound (just) good." They never just sound "good," they are phenomenal, they attack, they sound gorgeous, etc etc.
Why will the guitars be $5000, because they will be worth it. They have to be for this investment made to be a success. Their name and reputation is on the line. While Ovation "has never gotten the respect they deserve" Drum Workshop has earned the respect they get. Their name stands for something and backing Ovation means something much deeper than "oh lets build guitars too."
Posted 2015-12-28 12:21 PM (#519821 - in reply to #519818) Subject: Re: 50th anniv guitars
Joined: December 2014 Posts: 1713
Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota
Old Man Arthur - 2015-12-28 11:38 AM
"What do we call people who are great Kurv players?"
Dweebs.
LOL!!!!!!!
I wouldn't want one, but they are Fascinating, the technology behind it, and the thought process!
But then, I still like to read actual books, not my ipad, there is something about holding a book, and actually turning the pages. Like holding a guitar, and actually getting it right making music!
Posted 2015-12-28 1:20 PM (#519824 - in reply to #519820) Subject: Re: 50th anniv guitars
Joined: December 2014 Posts: 1713
Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota
Mr. Ovation - 2015-12-28 12:13 PM
I think some are missing the point of what these guitars represent. They are not just "collectors" guitars. They are in fact the first guitars after the reboot. They will undoubtedly be some of the best playing and sounding guitars ever made in that factory because that is what they need to be. This wasn't just a change of ownership, it was a complete reboot. The engineers and luthiers essentially starting from scratch with the knowledge and experience of 50 years of making guitars in their toolbox. DW has something to prove. Just talk to a drummer who actually plays DW Drums and ask about their top-of-the-line models... their "Collectors". You never or hardly ever, hear... "oh they sound (just) good." They never just sound "good," they are phenomenal, they attack, they sound gorgeous, etc etc.
Why will the guitars be $5000, because they will be worth it. They have to be for this investment made to be a success. Their name and reputation is on the line. While Ovation "has never gotten the respect they deserve" Drum Workshop has earned the respect they get. Their name stands for something and backing Ovation means something much deeper than "oh lets build guitars too."
Posted 2015-12-28 1:26 PM (#519825 - in reply to #519820) Subject: Re: 50th anniv guitars
Joined: January 2009 Posts: 1249
Location: Texas
Ovation is not going to threaten any company in the "sweet spot" of the market. Go into a GC and find an O in the 500-1500 range hanging with the other improrts. Nutin.
Ovation is not going to hurt Taylor or Martin with the 100 or so American guitars they are going to produce initially. There is just no visability to be a viable threat...not on TV, not in GC. They have a loyal niche. But that will become saturated at some point.
As far as $5K Adamas guitars. Unless it helps you earn your bread and butter...then I am guessing you are doing ok in life and I would probably like to work for you.
The re-birth of Ovation is a cool story. There is a helluva curve for it to overcome to return to the glory days. I am stuck in the cheap seats, but I enjoy watching and rooting for the home team.
Posted 2015-12-29 8:04 AM (#519850 - in reply to #517904) Subject: Re: 50th anniv guitars
Joined: June 2002 Posts: 6197
Location: Phoenix AZ
I assume at some point early 2016 that DW will settle on their target market for USA made Ovation and what actual models will be offered. Certainly these will be limited in quantity (7 employees?) and the "boutique" end of the total Ovation WW catalog. I agree with Jay, the likes of Martin, Taylor and Takamine will not even notice. But who cares.
As with anything you re-invent or bring back from the dead, you need to make a big splash up front to get anyone to notice or even buy them. Hence the 50th Ann models. The are certainly not for everyone, either asthetically or financially. But it's the kind of opening act you need if you want anyone to stay for the whole show. I doubt this thread would be 6+ pages long if DW had simply re-introduced the same old Legend or some Glen Campbell rehash. And my wallet would have stayed firmly closed.
Specifically about the bearclaw adamas being road worthy ... who cares? I would not call this a stage guitar by a long shot. It's a collectors guitar for some one willing to throw $5k at DW and say THANKS for coming back and allowing me to buy a model that I have never been able to in the past and will probably never be able to in the future. Sure, it will depreciate by 50% in the first year. That's not the point.
Posted 2015-12-29 12:22 PM (#519853 - in reply to #517904) Subject: Re: 50th anniv guitars
Joined: December 2015 Posts: 41
That was weird.
What I *think* I read was that a limited edition guitar model which looked different, but which is definitely part of Ovation history, is of too limited appeal compared to something more standard... but that the company should simultaneously attempt to do things which attract and bring in new blood.
I'm not sure if the way to bring in new blood is to do the same thing as before.
Fortunately for any given person, no one is being forced to buy a limited availability collector's edition, let alone to purchase such a guitar specifically as one's road guitar.
As for my personal opinion about the appearance of that particular limited edition guitar... There have been some Collector's Editions from ovation which appealed to me, some which haven't. I don't really expect them to design all their guitars to my taste unless I'm funding all the research and design work prior to production.
Don't like it? Don't buy it. That always seems like a simple solution in my life, and really helps when I go grocery shopping in particular....
Posted 2015-12-29 12:58 PM (#519854 - in reply to #519853) Subject: Re: 50th anniv guitars
Joined: December 2014 Posts: 1713
Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota
Explorer - 2015-12-29 12:22 PM
I'm not sure if the way to bring in new blood is to do the same thing as before.
I'd like to note that, this BearClaw, while developed years and years ago, was never put into Production, it is a Prototype that has hung at the Mothership for visitors to see, play and admire along with many other Prototypes and Special Pieces.
So DW is not so much re-issuing a previous or existing marketed piece, as Issuing a never before produced piece of Ovation history. This will be Brand New to the Market, something you were not able to ever get before.
If you look at the News-casts, Articles, and Photos from the Announcement of DW buying Ovation, to the Re-Opening, in almost every release, there is Darren cradling that #23 BearClaw Prototype! LOL!!!
Edited by Nancy 2015-12-29 1:04 PM
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50th anniv guitars
