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Location: Suisun City, Ca | You know Guitar. You've convinced me. You win. I think I'll just make a donation to WW and be done with it.
Then I'm going to dump the over-priced, crappy American-made O's I own and get me a quantity of imports.
I certainly wouldn't want you, or anyone else in here to think I'm a cork-sniffer, ditch-digger or any other type of cretin.
There can be no doubt that I am incapable of discerning the sound difference between, say, my 1537 or that new(ish) 1617ALE to a nice Korean model. Not to mention feel.
Whew, just think of all the future funds I'll save.
Mostly, I'll back off because I have no desire to meet you IRl and don't trust you not to try to rob me.
Have a nice day. |
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Location: Da Windy City | AstroDan - 2013-09-13 5:25 PM
You know Guitar. You've convinced me. You win. I think I'll just make a donation to WW and be done with it.
Then I'm going to dump the over-priced, crappy American-made O's I own and get me a quantity of imports.
I certainly wouldn't want you, or anyone else in here to think I'm a cork-sniffer, ditch-digger or any other type of cretin.
There can be no doubt that I am incapable of discerning the sound difference between, say, my 1537 or that new(ish) 1617ALE to a nice Korean model. Not to mention feel.
Whew, just think of all the future funds I'll save.
Mostly, I'll back off because I have no desire to meet you IRl and don't trust you not to try to rob me.
Have a nice day.
Okie Dokie. |
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Location: closely held secret | I shouldn't have called you a troll. It's really not fair to trolls.
What you are is the lowest form of internet vermin. An anonymous bully. You spout off a theory, dare anyone to prove you wrong, then call them a bunch of cowards because they won't cough up a measly 10K for your game.
In fact, it was your hypothesis, and if you really cared about that, you could certainly set up some tests and prove it yourself. That would be much more valid than making an empty claim with no basis, and you could come here and provide some data showing a very low likelihood of anyone being able to tell the difference (due to chance, it will never be impossible). Apparently you're not willing to take that chance with your own time and money. And that's not really your purpose here, is it?
And it's so safe to do in the anonymity of the internet. Much safer than, say, swaggering into a biker bar and shouting, "Hey! I'll bet 10 thousand dollars - and I wanna see cash here - none of you can tell the difference between a pair of Vance & Hines Twin Slashes and Akrapovics! What? No takers? Buncha whiney cowards!"
Here, you say what you like, insult who you like, condescend, demean and belittle who you like with virtually no consequences. In the biker bar, you probably die.
"Anonymity is to cowardice what Viagra is to impotence."
Compensate much?
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | AstroDan - 2013-09-13 3:25 PM
I'm going to dump the over-priced, crappy American-made O's I own and get me a quantity of imports.
I'll trade you a FINE Chinese Cedar-topped Contour Bowl Celebrity for that crappy '07C you've got.  
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Wow. Just was informed who you Guitar actually ARE.
Well played, my friend. Very well played. |
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Location: Da Windy City | Waskel@Work - 2013-09-13 6:07 PM
I shouldn't have called you a troll. It's really not fair to trolls.
What you are is the lowest form of internet vermin. An anonymous bully. You spout off a theory, dare anyone to prove you wrong, then call them a bunch of cowards because they won't cough up a measly 10K for your game.
In fact, it was your hypothesis, and if you really cared about that, you could certainly set up some tests and prove it yourself. That would be much more valid than making an empty claim with no basis, and you could come here and provide some data showing a very low likelihood of anyone being able to tell the difference (due to chance, it will never be impossible ). Apparently you're not willing to take that chance with your own time and money. And that's not really your purpose here, is it?
And it's so safe to do in the anonymity of the internet. Much safer than, say, swaggering into a biker bar and shouting, "Hey! I'll bet 10 thousand dollars - and I wanna see cash here - none of you can tell the difference between a pair of Vance & Hines Twin Slashes and Akrapovics! What? No takers? Buncha whiney cowards!"
Here, you say what you like, insult who you like, condescend, demean and belittle who you like with virtually no consequences. In the biker bar, you probably die.
"Anonymity is to cowardice what Viagra is to impotence."
Compensate much?
Is it worth making a detailed response to this?
*flips coin*
Guess not this time.
Will just say that most of your assertions made in that post are about as accurate and insightful as your beliefs about guitars. Some of it was so incoherent, you might want to see if you're not having some kind of stroke.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-13 6:24 PM
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Location: Da Windy City | Standingovation - 2013-09-13 6:17 PM
Wow. Just was informed who you Guitar actually ARE.
Well played, my friend. Very well played.
I haven't been hiding who I "actually" am.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-13 6:24 PM
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| I have to say that the more I read 'Guitar's' posts, the more I respect him. He is only asking that persons claiming a night and day difference between the manufacturers prove it. I am totally sympathetic to this because I almost lost a fortune on a chip amp design precisely for this kind of preconception. Now, even the highest end amp producers don't shy away from using op-amps in their hi-fi systems. I don't doubt there are a few people capable of hearing the difference but more likely will be the ability to feel it. I have seen 'golden ear' types humbled and humiliated in double blind hi-fi stereo tests. The reactions afterwards have ranged from indignation and accusations of cheating to 'I'm feeling slightly stuffy today' backtracking. If you even suspect you are a blusterer, fess up now and save yourself the grief because I WILL join in the arrow slinging party. 'Guitar', I'd be honored to be considered your ally. |
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Location: Da Windy City | Gmaslin:
The book of 'believer excuses' is always the same.
It looks just like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjC64cnxl0k
^ that ^.
Every time.
Always.
Literally identical to whats depicted in that video, every time, like clockwork, regardless of what 'irrational belief' is being tested.
When people deeply believe in irrational things, they expectedly resent everyone who challenges their delusions but more importantly, for those who actually submit to testing (and inevitably fail), instead of examining their beliefs and perhaps admitting that they've been in err, they simply make excuses why 'this time was different' or how the test was all wrong, etc, etc, etc.
They're all the same.
The phenomenon doesn't just infest the guitar world. It's in a lot of places. When one notes how a particular belief is bullshit, the contortions of logic from the 'believers' can be spectacular, demanding that negatives be proven and that indeed, it's not up to THEM to prove what they can do, it's up to anyone who points out its bullshit to prove that its bullshit... and even when YOU OFFER TO DO JUST THAT, well, that's not good enough either... OR YOU'RE A BULLY!!!
Clowns, but terrifyingly common.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-13 6:44 PM
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Location: Da Windy City | And
gmaslin - 2013-09-13 6:27 PM
I don't doubt there are a few people capable of hearing the difference...
This is what fascinates me, because it's probably absolutely true.
"Guitar Ear" probably has its Eric Johnson type 'third-sigma', just like everything else does.
I simply maintain that 99.999% of the blowhards who believe they can 'hear it' indeed CANNOT hear it and I'm willing to bet on that. The 0.001% of the time I run into the once-in-a-lifetime freak who can do it, I'll give him his money but the other 99,999 times, expectation is grotesquely on my side.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-13 6:52 PM
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You're still an a$$. But I'd be willing to bet you're even more annoying when you're drunk... Let's do some Neil Young sometime. |
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Location: Da Windy City | Waskel@Work - 2013-09-13 6:52 PM
You're still an a$$. But I'd be willing to bet you're even more annoying when you're drunk... Let's do some Neil Young sometime.
Okie dokie. |
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Location: Utah | gmaslin - 2013-09-13 6:27 PM
I have to say that the more I read 'Guitar's' posts, the more I respect him. He is only asking that persons claiming a night and day difference between the manufacturers prove it.
Actually, he was the one who barged in and claimed there is no appreciable, practical difference between a $300 and a $3000 guitar. I think the onus is on him to prove his point.
He could, for instance, obtain a random $300 and a random $3000 guitar from an internet source. There are a number of online retailers he could buy from. Then he could have an inspection by, for example, several experienced luthiers and several experienced guitarists. Let the experts look at the fit/finish of the guitars. Evaluate the feel in every aspect. Play them. Listen to them. Plug them in and listen to them. Then, disassemble them. Inspect the component parts and the mechanical designs. Evaluate the sturdiness and repairability for a long term owner.
Don't tell the inspectors that the purpose is to determine if there is a difference, just ask them for their opinions of the two guitars.
See, Guitar can attempt to prove the affirmative of what he postulated. If he fails, he fulfills the Scientific Method. If a double blind scientific experiment with a group of experts affirms his hypothesis, the hypothesis stands as supported. If the experts find appreciable or practical differences, his hypothesis fails.
First, though, perhaps he (you?) should define the terms with specificity. "Appreciable" means what? "Practical" means what? |
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Location: Utah | Guitar - 2013-09-13 5:15 PM
Because I never claimed that people can't familiarize themselves with polyphonic differences that exist between instruments after decades of use. The implication of my position is that one cannot 'hear' a random US guitar from a random non US guitar to any degree of repeatability, which is a pretty meaningful observation given their disparity in cost and the number of people who insist they can.
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See the word "no" in that sentence?
That's the whole 'prove a negative' thing. My position is inherently contra, not affirmative.
Sure you could prove it. Use experienced ears, maybe music students at a university. In a double blind test have someone play the two random guitars. See if there is "any degree of repeatability" of their ability to distinguish the two guitars.
Ever heard of the Scientific Method. It isn't 7th grade logic but it is 3rd grade science. |
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Location: Da Windy City | FlySig - 2013-09-13 7:14 PM
See, Guitar can attempt to prove the affirmative of what he postulated. If he fails, he fulfills the Scientific Method. If a double blind scientific experiment with a group of experts affirms his hypothesis, the hypothesis stands as supported. If the experts find appreciable or practical differences, his hypothesis fails.
First, though, perhaps he (you?) should define the terms with specificity. "Appreciable" means what? "Practical" means what?
FlySig - 2013-09-13 7:19 PM
Sure you could prove it. Use experienced ears, maybe music students at a university. In a double blind test have someone play the two random guitars. See if there is "any degree of repeatability" of their ability to distinguish the two guitars.
Ever heard of the Scientific Method. It isn't 7th grade logic but it is 3rd grade science.
Obviously-forced verbosity is a sign of a weak intellect trying to swim in the deep end a bit too soon. It's also funny when someone like yourself says "it's third grade science..." when it's quite unlikely that, indeed, when it comes to science, you are NOT smarter than a 3rd grader.
Ya see, scientific rigor is incredibly established in most areas. It's not subject to 'internet debate'. Its unarguable.
The best part is when some scientifically illiterate eDoofus comes along and starts in with the whole "pursuant to the hypotheses of established query dicta, the needed specificity of testing against obdurate criteria imbues variables the so as to be amenable to equitable perusal' routine. On a guitar forum, when in defense of some popular delusion, boy, that sure is some Grade-A razzle-dazzle to the peanut gallery who doesn't know what the **** they're even reading...
But to people who actually 'comprehend' this stuff and have a bit of background in the sciences? Like, if I posted a link to what you just wrote on a certain science-based forum and asked the denizens there to appraise what you said in the light of established testing criterion, Well, they'd laugh and probably ask why I was trying to have a conversation like this with someone like you on a guitar forum. The stuff you 'reject' is hilarious, the esoteric premises you try and cobble up in place of standard practices, again, it's just funny.
This is one of those things that, to anyone who understands what they're looking at, is always funny to see. The guy who knows nothing but is doing his level-best to create the illusion that he does...
I realize you're trying hard and I commend that.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-13 7:44 PM
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Location: Da Windy City | Seriously though, I'm starting to see how utterly pointless this is. It's like trying to discuss stock options with my dog.
Unless someone really insists on sucking me back into this discussion (and I sure do have a weakness for getting sucked back into discussions), FlySig, you're welcome to the last word here.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-13 7:47 PM
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| FlySig
I agree with the fit and finish aspect and that is why I added the proviso, 'more likely to feel the difference' but hearing it is quite a bit harder. Yes, he did introduce the challenge but only after reading what must have been complete anathema to him. I think the point here is that the difference in sound is not discernible so if that is your concern, the extra money doesn't get you what you can hear. I believe Guitar described the parameters for pass/fail earlier in the thread. |
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Location: Utah | So go post it and give us the link to the responses of expert researchers. I'm not looking btw for some kind of peer reviewed Ph.D. dissertation research project. I'm just looking for you to prove the assertion you made that there is "no appreciable, practical difference" between the two price points. And your next assertion that there isn't "any degree of repeatability" in the ability of guitarists to hear the difference between such guitars. I think there are some easy ways to prove it to a substantial confidence level using statistically valid sample sizes (that would be college level stats lingo) of experts such as luthiers and musicians.
It isn't up to any of us to disprove your point, it is up to you to prove your assertions.
But we do need a definition of terms unless you're using common meanings.
I enjoy my guitars, of all price points and construction. I can certainly appreciate the differences, and there are to me practical differences between an USA LX guitar and an AX/TX guitar. I don't have to convince you of that, it is my opinion and my tastes. I've played a bunch of guitars, bought and sold some, and kept the ones I like. I don't need your approval for what I enjoy.
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Location: Flahdaw | Interesting how Guitar and gmaslin seem to both be unknowns to the forum, yet be on the same page.....????? |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Blah Blah Blah...
I bought a Korean-made 1778TX because I had sold all of my USA-made Elite T's and nobody in their right mind was selling USA T's anymore.
(Go look on eekBay... there ain't none)
I received the 1778TX and it wasn't terrible.
As luck would have it I managed to snag a REAL USA 1778T because of a typo.
Once I had both the T and the TX for a side-by-side the difference was obvious.
I kept the T, sold the TX.
You don't need the scientific method.
Just grab some innocent bystanders and ask which one sounds better.
They can tell the difference.
Why are we even having this stupid discussion.
Guitar... Go grab a Celebrity or an Applause or an Epiphone or an Esteban.
If you are satisfied with that good for you.
Before I had my present guitars I had Many Celebrity guitars.
I have one now. And an Epiphone and a Squier Parts-caster.
You can play whatever you want, there is no need to discuss this or anything else in your miserable little existence.
Oh, and "Guitar"... Don't respond to me.
I won't see it... you are on my ignore list.
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Location: Utah | gmaslin - 2013-09-13 7:53 PM
FlySig
I agree with the fit and finish aspect and that is why I added the proviso, 'more likely to feel the difference' but hearing it is quite a bit harder. Yes, he did introduce the challenge but only after reading what must have been complete anathema to him. I think the point here is that the difference in sound is not discernible so if that is your concern, the extra money doesn't get you what you can hear. I believe Guitar described the parameters for pass/fail earlier in the thread.
Well that sounds all reasonable, but yet it is not correct as far as Guitar's assertions. Without knowing who's cheerios he was peeing in, he came and insulted the general membership of the forum and gave a good display of arrogant disrespect. One guy here used to own a gas station, but it doesn't mean he doesn't know a thing or two about Ovation guitars. And that reference is lost on both you and Guitar, which demonstrates the level of your/his ignorance.
Some of the people here have more than a passing acquaintance with how these guitars are made, both domestically and overseas. Some have more than a passing acquaintance with playing guitars.
And then there are just plain amateur hack hobbiests like me. I'm confident even I can hear the differences Guitar claims don't exist.
Yet he is like jello being nailed to the wall when we ask him to show us we're wrong. He slithers and slides and responds to the direct challenges with insults. He obviously doesn't know anything about the conversations and members here, or he'd know this group embraces guitarists of all skill levels and financial status. It is kind of humorous some of the people he's called Cork Sniffers.
Edited by FlySig 2013-09-13 9:15 PM
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Location: Flahdaw | Why is ANY one wasting ANY time arguing with these 2 jerk offs? (although, as I previously said, it's been an interesting thread...) |
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| BobG
If you are implying that I am a 'Guitar' sock puppet you would be mistaken and the mods can verify that easily by looking up our respective IP addresses.
FlySG
You're casting aspersions on a man who is putting his money behind his words and in today's world, you can't get much more more concrete than that. Listen, I love you guys and the fact that you love Ovations. You are an excellent resource on an esoteric subject but please accept the possibility that you might be hearing what you want to hear. This is not a condemnation as much as an acknowledgement of our humanity. |
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Location: Orlando, FL | Holy Crap! I slack off for a couple of days and missed all this!
I can't believe all of you old farts are being so mean to Guitar! You should feel sorry for him if he can't tell the difference between a $300 celebrity and a $3000 Ovation! It is obvious from reading this whole thread that you ALL are delusional and the only one who has a valid opinion or any knowledge here is Guitar, and you people (that's right, I said YOU PEOPLE), do nothing but insult him. In fact some of you even go so far as to act like you have played Ovations for 30 or 40 years, or have actually built them, or ran the company or some such nonsense. Puleeese!
Now you'll probably come after me for defending him.
This thread has been more entertaining than its virtual weight in cat videos. Now if we could get HeatherDDD to chime in this discussion would be complete.
Edited by Designzilla 2013-09-13 9:52 PM
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Location: Utah | gmaslin, it isn't just the hearing. Guitar stated clearly in his first assertion on the first page that there is "no appreciable, practical difference" between the two price points. I guess to him practical aspects don't include playability, durability, future maintenance (neck reset for example), quality of tuning machines, preamp features, and attention to build detail. He later said nobody could hear the difference. Anyone who has played a number of different O models knows there is a big difference between models which affect tone. There just is. We have had blind tests on this forum. Read that last sentence again. It has been done. More than once.
If you or Guitar think you have some new data, go ahead and share it. I've offered some ideas on double blind tests using experts. Or come up with a protocol more acceptable to the cork sniffing scientists on whatever researcher forum you visit.
Obviously Guitar gets a charge out of insulting people. He has made not only direct insults but revealed his arrogant disdain through subtle insults. Over on the '97C thread he gloats about how he likes finding ugly duckling cosmetically damaged guitars which collectors would not be interested in, as if there is some higher moral standing if you're not a collector or if you spend less money. Funny how he loves the USA guitar if he gets it for the cheap price. I mean, if the sound is the same, who would prefer a beat up USA guitar over a nicely finished cheap import if the price is the same? Guitar is a snob in his own way.
Edited by FlySig 2013-09-13 9:58 PM
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so sad
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