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Location: Tennessee | JohnW63 - 2012-10-16 6:06 PM "Totally disrespectful of the Engineering department at Ovation who have clearly innovated far more than ANY other guitar maker out there." Not true. How can you disrespect people you don't know of ? I don't know the FORD engineers either, but until they came out with a NEW engine that is making some headlines called the EcoBoost, I was thinking they hadn't done much either. All the engines listed in the Euro web sites beat the snot out of our versions. I haven't read any buzz about new Ovation tech advances. If they don't make "headlines" and reviews don't build up, how would the casual observer/player ever know ? If an innovation happens in a forest and no one TELLS you about it...... ? Get the idea. Yes, I do get it. You didn't know about it so it obviously didn't happen. That's ridiculous. You disrespected the Ovation Engineering department by publicly stating, on this Ovation Fan Club, that they haven't done anything in the last 20 years. Without any regard for the facts. You're entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts or lack thereof. |
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| While not certified data, because the companies don't give out their official sales figures...
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-21790...
Martin made 66,746 guitars in 2010
Taylor makes upwards of 70,000 per year
Try as I might, I could not find numbers for Ovation. However, if they were making a lot of them and selling them, they would be a bright spot for Fender and not be listed as part of the criticism for the company. I would also suspect they would still be building lots of instruments in this country, like Martin or Taylor. So, if you have a source that shows they make and sell more instruments than those, I would like to see it.
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | JohnW63 - 2012-10-17 12:06 AM
Try as I might, I could not find numbers for Ovation.
If you are talking about USA made Ovations, all you have to do is look at the serial numbers.
In 1972 they made 7,000 guitars by the serial numbers.
In 2006 they made about 8,000 (601451-609566)
In 2007 they made about 9,000 (609567-618494)
In 2008 they made about 1,800 (618495-620263) that is when they moved manufacture to Korea.
My Sweet-T was made in 2008 and I had to wait for delivery. It has a 619xxx serial number.
That means that the New Hartford Factory made a little over 620,000 guitars in 36 years.
If Taylor makes 70,000 guitar a year... Then they make about 200 guitars per day.
How much individual hand crafting are we talking about here.
By that same arithmetic, Ovation made 20 guitars a day.
BTW-- I don't want a Taylor...
Not because it is a bad guitar, I am sure that they are fine guitars.
I don't want a Taylor just cuz it's a stinkin' Taylor.
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Location: Flahdaw | Of Taylor's 70,000 guitars, I wonder how many are the cheapies, made in Mexico? (They ARE packed full of exciting innovations however, such as necks and frets and sound holes and sometimes tone...) |
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Location: Miami | Can't stay quiet any more.
Ovations' and Adamases' round backs and side soundholes and epi's give them more WOW to the average eye than ANY standard guitar out there, PERIOD. I GUARANTEE no other guitar at the gig gets THIS many comments, by virtue of what sets them VISIBLY apart. Mr. O hit it right on the head with the Apple marketing analogy. What is needed is to (1) hit VH1, MTV, and Palladia with guitar commercials (you don't see ANY guitar commercials!). It would give them the visibility Apple has over Microsoft (granted, the Surface commercial is not bad). (2) Push the green angle and the unique design like it's the next best thing even if it was 30 years ago. (3) Be artistic in the ads, playing up the curve of the roundback and the sideholes like VW did for the bug, showing it parked in front of a dome, then driving away to reveal the dome with the same shape. THAT kind of marketing. ie, don't target GUITAR PLAYERS. Target PEOPLE. Have another commercial showing a helicopter blade flying off a helicopter, flying through guitar stores slicing through other guitars, and morphing into the back of an Ovation. Come on, people, THINK!!!
Edited by Jukebox Joe 2012-10-17 9:54 AM
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | joetunon - 2012-10-18 8:53 AM
Can't stay quiet any more.
Ovations' and Adamases' round backs and side soundholes and epi's give them more WOW to the average eye than ANY standard guitar out there, PERIOD. I GUARANTEE no other guitar at the gig gets THIS many comments, by virtue of what sets them VISIBLY apart. Mr. O hit it right on the head with the Apple marketing analogy. What is needed is to (1) hit VH1, MTV, and Palladia with guitar commercials (you don't see ANY guitar commercials!). It would give them the visibility Apple has over Microsoft (granted, the Surface commercial is not bad). (2) Push the green angle and the unique design like it's the next best thing even if it was 30 years ago. (3) Be artistic in the ads, playing up the curve of the roundback and the sideholes like VW did for the bug, showing it parked in front of a dome, then driving away to reveal the dome with the same shape. THAT kind of marketing. ie, don't target GUITAR PLAYERS. Target PEOPLE. Have another commercial showing a helicopter blade flying off a helicopter, flying through guitar stores slicing through other guitars, and morphing into the back of an Ovation. Come on, people, THINK!!!
YES! YES! YES!!!! Joe, if Fender reads this you might just get a call offering you a position in marketing! |
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Location: Caribou, ME | Or just air reruns of the Goodtime Hour. |
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | Here's my idea of the Ovation guitar for the 21st Century:
It would be an all-composite guitar with no exotic wood used at all.
1) A contour bowl.
2) An Adamas top and mounting system that looks like the Adamas 2080-BB OFC-II Custom for stunning looks and sound.
3) An aluminum or carbon fiber neck a la the Matrix, but with stainless steel frets that could be replaced or dressed.
4) OP-Pro electronics.
5) Carbon Fiber or Lyracord bridge.
6) Black Tusq II nut and bridge saddle a la the 2078T/TX.
7) Black chrome tuners a la 1778T/TX & 2078T/TX or matt chrome a la the 1988 Collectors..
And, above all, if it has a cut-away bowl, then the strap pin absolutely has to be mounted on the treble bout instead of the bass bout so the guitar stays put.
Edited by DanSavage 2012-10-17 3:11 PM
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Location: SoCal | I'm curious. How can you tell Martin and Taylor guitars that were built in Mexico or overseas? Any idea what the price break is? |
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Location: Suisun City, Ca | I guess I'm an old fuddy-duddy, but... If all I read is Euro web sites, I probably also wouldn't know about a little thing called the 302 and virtually all euro engines would beat the snot of of everything American. I challenge ANY Euro car anywhere near the price range of my "Betsy" to outperform her... If all I see is artists on MTV, music award shows etc playing Martins and Taylors; QED Ovation needs to get the product into the hands that will (noticeably) showcase it. The American made guitars speak for themselves once people actually see and play them. Never see them in GC or anywhere else, myself... I think i get the idea. |
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Location: Flahdaw | immoody - 2012-10-17 5:21 PM
I'm curious. How can you tell Martin and Taylor guitars that were built in Mexico or overseas? Any idea what the price break is?
It's based on model numbers.
Martin makes under 70,000 guitars a year, over half are made in Mexico. Similar #'s HAVE to be the same for Taylor. All Taylor 100 and 200 series, and "Baby" series are made in Mexico. |
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Location: NJ | well....
been sick a few days and I come back to this mess???????
when I speak of new hartford I am not talking about imports. IMHO some companies have made a great transition from USA production to "off shore" IMHO Ovation is not one of them. it is spotty at best. IMHO the New Hartford built instruments are superior.
bowl paint being a happy accident? ehhhhhh what is on top of an Adamas? OK I'll tell you bowl paint.
the reason is because it is much thinner than the other paint and therefore allows the top to resonate more.
I see tons of pretty guitars out there with pretty tops made by probably the same factory in Korea and china. most sound like cardboard. most play like bricks. most have preamps that are prone to feedback and sound tinny.
So where does that take us?
I have personally overseen the build of what I think are some of the most incredible guitars to come out of the factory. Why? well I ordered them.
If you build it they will come.
Miles often talks about Carvin as being a model for a company that has worldwide distribution yet is not in the stores. It is very true. So the fact that guitars are not in the brick in mortar stores may be a problem for those that want to finger them on a saturday and go home and complain that it is too much to spend but those that want the guitars actually will seek them out and purchase them.
Reputation and word of mouth are sometimes your best sales force.
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Location: NJ | oh let me tell you this.
last week I showed up at my thurs haunt for open mic. My head felt like it was going to explode I did not want to sign up but a friend signed me up to play.
as people filed in some did not have their guitar with them and since they are friends they asked me to borrow mine.
I rarely get a chance to hear how my guitar sounds at a venue SINCE I AM THE ONE PLAYING IT but this night was different.
5 people borrowed my 2008 (modified) Adamas collector's
everyone complemented it
how well it plays
how well it sounds
how easy it is to play
how great the action is.
my guitar is a war horse I have been using it since 2008 and it has seen tons of gigs.
I was stunned at how good the guitar sounded.
it was crisp
it had bottom
it was articulate
it sounded like an acoustic
it sounded DIFFERENT than all the other guitars that night
it was up against a
taylor T 5
santa cruz
Ibanez
Martin
yet everyone raved how much they loved the sound of MY guitar.
none of these players own an ovation or Adamas
yet
they changed their mind about the instruments that night.
however
if they went to the local GC or ash and played a celebrity or korean import
I am positive they would be disappointed
The current state of the mid level guitars is not good IMHO |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Welcome, back Al. Start a thread that gets everyone stirred up and then take off a few days. This thread was actually pretty good. Lots of opinions, many strays off topic, just like the old days, but thought provoking. I hope the new guy gets some worthwhile ideas, not the least of which is that he has a pretty rabid fanbase. |
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Location: SoCal | When I plug in at church, I can't tell what I sound like. All I can hear is the moniter and it sucks. But ocassionaly I'll ask the other player to play my guitars so I can get a handle on my sound through the mains. It always sounds great, 1537 or Adamas. They are different but they sound great...... |
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| AstroDan,
A 302, ( Let's call it a 5 liter for modern terms ) came out of Detroit in about 1967. Probably about 225hp and similar torque numbers. Over time, new bits were dropped on it and the HP went up. Of course it still WEIGHS quite a lot. All cast iron. Today, you can get a twin turbo 2.0 liter that has those same numbers. 200hp. On a VW. Since it's in a sporty car with paddle shifters and low profile wheels, the VW GTI sells for about $24,000. I belive that engine can be had in some of VWs less costly cars as well. It also gets 30mph on the highway, going 80mph to Las Vegas for almost 3 hours. Ford used that same basic block for a good 30 years with just bolt on changes. It certainly has longevity, but it was VERY long in the tooth and outperformed by much more modern and efficient engines. Ford was LONG overdue for a change. Enter the EcoBoost. Now they have a 2 liter engine that gets the same performance as your 302. Welcome to the 21st century, Ford.
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Location: south east Michigan | I'm a Detroit boy. I get what you wrote. But it's kinda of a sketchy analogy.
I take it you feel the guitar needs to be completely re-invented.
.
cars / guitars
apples / oranges
. re-read bobbo's posts. |
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| Yes, I do get it. You didn't know about it so it obviously didn't happen. That's ridiculous.
No, you don't get it. I never said it didn't happen. I said you can't DISRESPECT what you have no knowledge of. If I say that my local donut shop makes the best cinnamon rolls in California, but there is some shop 100 miles away that makes great ones, I am NOT disrespecting the other donut maker. If some scientist is a lab in Stockholm made some innovative solar panel , but only the insiders knew about it, I guess I can't say ANYTHING about Swedish scientists EVER for fear of disrespecting them ? Hogwash.
Let's put it this way. If I walked into any big music store in the country and asked 100 customers. " What has Ovation done lately ? " and they say, " I don't know ? Do they still have those round back made out of plastic or fiberglass and some of their guitars have lots of little holes instead of one big one ? " and I reply, with a " Yes". Would they be "disrespecting" the engineers at Ovation by replying " I guess they haven' done anything new lately. " ? Of course not ! What it would REALLY show is that very few people KNOW what Ovation DOES. Is that THEIR fault or somebody at Ovation ?
If only fully researched FACTS can be talked about, and opinions without that background check are allowed in the forum, I guess I missed it posted on the front door. |
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| SlipKid,
No, it doesn't need to be completely reinvented, but with as much GLOBAL competition, those that still CAN make a name for themselves will stand out. The Ovation brand doesn't conjure up enough positive responses anymore. At some point in the past, there was a disconnect. Most likely, when they had to sell the bulk of their guitars at very low margins, the marketing budget was cut. But without marketing, how do you keep your brand in people's minds in a good way ?
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Location: SoCal | alpep - 2012-10-09 9:18 AM
a new product manager for Ovation and he is interested with meeting and getting some ideas about what is important to Ovation guitar players.
Let's go back to the beginning. What's important?
1. Really good acoustic sound -- I play acoustic guitar (and sometimes plugged in acoustic guitar). I want something that sounds great -- not Martin, Gibson, or Taylor great, just great. Rich full sound
2. Durable -- I don't want a guitar that's delicate. I've seen too many Taylors that go out of tune at the drop of a hate. I want a guitar that I can take with me where ever I go. If I've got a problem with it, it can be repaired (neck reset, frets, whatever).
3. Great playability -- I want a guitar that plays like butter. It frets and notes well up and down the neck. It should be well set up from the factory with only minor tweaks needed down the road. I've barely touched my 1537 or Adams I 12 string regarding how they are set up.
4. Good price --- not cheap, just good. The best Taylor I ever played was a great $1500-$2000 guitar. Problem with it was it cost $3200. I see new 1681 WT's on ebay for $3600. That may be too much (there may not be a choice with costs). It's a modern version of my 1537 which I consider a $2grand guitar. I may be hopelessly out of date here. But for a great, inspiring guitar, I'm willing to pay more. My OFC slothead certain cost more, and I didn't complain about the cost (thanks Al -- what a great guitar).
5. Really good acoustic sound. Above all else, I want a guitar that makes me want to pick it up just to strum it for the sound.
Kinda sounds like Charlie's original thoughts for Ovation. But these are the things that are important to me.....
Edited by moody, p.i. 2012-10-17 7:01 PM
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Location: Tennessee | JohnW63 - 2012-10-17 4:23 PM Yes, I do get it. You didn't know about it so it obviously didn't happen. That's ridiculous. No, you don't get it. I never said it didn't happen. Your own words : "The problem with Ovation, as I see it, is that they were once big innovators, but have really don't nothing new in 20+ years." If you said the donut shop doesn't know how to make cinnamon rolls, that is disrespecting them. If you said Swedish solar panel manufacturers haven't done anything new in 20 years, that is disrespecting them. Saying Ovation really hasn't done anything new in 20 years is disrespecting them. Had you said "I'm not familiar with the advances Ovation has made in the last 20 years, have they done anything?" then we wouldn't have this disconnect. And then when I provided you a list and tried to gently educate you, you responded that the things I cited were not new nor innovative, despite all the evidence to the contrary. My opinion is that Ovation continued to innovate. They continued to market in a number of ways. They brought out new guitars that have surpassed nearly everything they had ever done before. Your opinion is that they did not. Please give me YOUR facts to support that please and I'll attempt to shed some insight as to why I feel differently. We CAN have an intellectually honest discussion, even if we disagree. But I am so tired of all the negative attack speech that cannot be supported by the truth, that I'm a little cranky these days. Please don't take it personally. |
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Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | This thread is starting to remind me of youth soccer games; where the parents keep yelling themselves horse at the children trying to take the ball from each other that they're on the same team.  |
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| StoneBobbo,
We will never see eye to eye. If you would pause for a moment and stop with all the over the top "disrespecting" issues, perhaps you would see that I am not an insider or a big time "fanboy". I do not hang on every change that Ovation has tried or feel that they are the best at all aspects of guitar building. But, what I am, and this should be of some value, is the " every man " guitar player. How I see Ovation is a lot like the rest of the WORLD sees Ovation. Except it's a bit better because I like them and now own two of their instruments. A marketing guy would learn nothing from your point of view. You're the yes man; It's ALL good ! On the other hand if they want to get what the majority of consumers are thinking, my point of view would be much more representative of that. The start of the thread made me think Fender wanted to know players ideas about what they could CHANGE or ADD to their line of products. So, I started throwing out ideas and points of view. Apparently, what Al wanted was a short list of options for the eye candy, custom build only, high dollar, instruments for the select few, who consequently, don't NEED to be convinced to try out an Ovation guitar. Had I known that, I never would have cared at all about the thread.
p.s. Please give my e-mail to any and ALL the Ovation designers whose ears are burning and feel disrespected by my uninformed comments. I have a feeling I would have a much less contentious conversation with them. I find what they do very interesting. At one point in my college career, I wanted to get in the audio research and design.
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Location: Tennessee | Sorry. You're right and I'm wrong.
I apologize for my total ignorance of things related to marketing or guitars.
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Or cars. You forgot cars, Bobbo...
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New guitars from New Hartford?
