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Location: SE Michigan | Speaking of a week at the beach, I was thinking, why doesnt Ovation produce a low-cost no-nonsense Adamas? I'm thinking along the lines of the Elite-T but with a graphite top. Keep it basic but include:
(1) Texured top, black will do,
(2) Deep bowl
(3) Decent preamp, the OP-Pro would do fine
(4) LX neck
(5) No epaulets, just holes
(6) Spare all the other bling to minimize costs.
A lot of players (myself included) would like a great sounding mostly-synthetic guitar that is fairly impervious to weather and humidity. But I just can't bring myself to spend $1800 to $4000 on a beach guitar.
Ovation could beat CA guitars, Emerald, and Rainsong to the punch. Come out with a poor-mans Adamas and spare all the bling. Oh-yeah, I would like to see it for less than $1000. If they could do this I'll bet they would sell like hotcakes. |
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Location: Midland, MI | I think it's a great idea and I would seriously consider buying an 'EliteT-ified' Adamas if it were at or less than a grand. OTOH, I wonder how much a low-cost (retail) Adamas would cannibalize the high-end Ovation market.
Obviously, a certain percentage of high-end O buyers would switch to the low-end Adamas while the rest would stick to the high-end O. But, what would that percentage be? 10%? 20%? More? |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | That's an interesting idea, but I'm just not sure how low cost they could do it. What you described is very similar to the Q597 (bare epaulets, OP50, no bling). It was about as bare bones of an adamas as you could get and I still think it was selling well above $1500. Just a guess, but I think it would surprise us if we knew how much ovation actually paid for the tops. I bet it's more than you think. Dave |
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Location: SoCal | probably won't see a new one but an Adamas II for $900-1,200 is possible, even an Adamas II 12-str. And, outstanding. |
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Location: Midland, MI | I wouldn't take my AII to the beach, though, Tony. :)
The Q is discontinued, eh, Dave? Not a big seller? I only vaguely recall any discussion of it here...what's the deal-y-o on the Q? Good? Bad? Ugly? I saw that black one with the sparkle paint on the back hanging in the repair shop and thought it looked pretty cool. |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | After seeing the size and make-up of the entire Adamas division at the factory, I don't see how they can do anything except custom orders and semi-custom limited models. |
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Location: south east Michigan | I can't beleive I'm saying this...
What if they made it off-shore??? |
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Location: Budd Lake, NJ | Now, really;
Here we are, touting the virtues of the "home-made" Ovations over the others, and now you suggest that the Adamii have half-siblings, too?
The overseas Ovations can't help the reputations of those made here; some of the ones I've played certainly haven't. (They really deserved to be flung from Jeff's little catapult.)
After awhile, there won't be anything really special about owning an Adamas--and if that's the case, why bother?
(Just my "I-think-you-might-have-struck-a-nerve" two cents...)
--Karen |
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Location: south east Michigan | I'm disturbed by my own statement.
I am in a generally pessimistic mood today so things like this feel like they are just bound to happen someday.
I think I'll go to my songbook and see if I can find a happy song to play.
I'm not privey to the cost factors but I think Brian's idea has merit.
If I want to take one of my good guitars out of the house, the UTE is the one I'd be less concerned over. |
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Location: Tennessee | The cost of carbon fibre has gone through the stratosphere, and it's getting very hard to get. |
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Location: Sunshine State, Australia | Blame those Brazilians. Soon as their Rosewood was all chopped up, they started chopping down their carbon fibre forests.
And if they're gonna make Adamii offshore, may I suggest Australia as a site for the new factory??  |
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Location: Australia | I'll second that! :D |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | I'm sure carbon-fiber is expensive...
But Why? Isn't Carbon the most common element on that planet? :confused:
Just thinking out loud... |
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Location: SoCal | Why? When you can get a textured top Adamas from Al or one like this...the one Serge is playing - he recorded two tracks on his CD (when loaned)...now, it is his in trade for another Kaman product. And, trade based on less than a $1,000 projected value.
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Location: SoCal | Originally posted by Old Man Arthur:
I'm sure carbon-fiber is expensive...
But Why? Isn't Carbon the most common element on that planet? :confused:
Just thinking out loud... Supply and demand...
The following is from a Bicycling Magazine article:
"Last April, airplane maker Boeing announced that it had signed a $6 billion deal with Toray, the world's largest carbon-fiber manufacturer, to supply it with carbon to produce its new 787 Dreamliner. This seemingly unremarkable announcement was big news in the bicycle world, where carbon is in increasingly short supply. Carbon makers will likely never shut off supply to any industry, including bikes. But there are only six major manufacturers of raw carbon-fiber filament in the world, and adding capacity to meet higher demand is expensive and time-consuming. And with no miracle material waiting to take carbon's place, demand continues to grow.
The Dreamliner uses more carbon fiber than any plane in history. Each of the 60-odd 787s Boeing plans to build each year will use about 23 tons of carbon fiber and 35 tons of carbon-reinforced plastic. By contrast, Trek, one of the largest carbon-frame makers in the world, buys just 212 tons a year. Additionally, Toray's forecast of the carbon market shows the biggest projected growth--from 27,000 tons today to 40,000 in 2010--is not in aerospace, but in industry: for automobiles and structures such as bridges and oil rigs. Demand from the sports industry is projected to rise from 5,000 to 6,000 tons; if it increases more than expected, some industry will feel the pressure.
Close relationships with carbon producers help the big bike makers. Rachel Buszka, sourcing and materials leader at Trek, says that company's collaboration with carbon supplier Hexcel goes back 12 years, and the two companies work together to develop carbon-fiber products that Trek can use in its frames. But, she cautions, "If you haven't built a relationship, you've got problems."
While strong relationships will preserve supply, price is beyond any company's control. Transportation and raw materials costs are rising, partly due to oil prices.
None of the bike makers we spoke with professed concern about availability, or that they'd be forced to redesign bikes with less carbon. But bike makers have already had to agree to higher prices to keep the supply lines open, says Eric Koh of Taiwan-based frame-builder Martec, adding that some suppliers "have short-listed the number of customers that they will continue to serve." The situation isn't at the point where carbon models from small makers will disappear, but a continued shortage will definitely lead to higher prices, and fewer bikes on shop floors.
Also, carbon bikes may look different. One shortage area in the last couple of years has been the woven top layer that most of us think of as carbon fiber. Because it's largely cosmetic, many builders now paint frames and use a small section of exposed weave as a window into the frame material. On the high end, builders may leave woven layers out and showcase the unidirectional plies." |
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Location: Chehalis, Washington | Sounds strikingly similar to an article I recently read about the Sitka forests in Alaska running out of old growth for guitar tops...kind of frightening how quickly we gobble up resources, isn't it?
I like the idea of a low-end Adamas, but really, after playing a 1778T for a while, it pretty well comes close on its own to filling the bill nicely. Streamlined looks, durable finish, good elctronics, and very nice acoustic sound. I'd way rather spend $650 -$800 on one of those than over $1000 on a virtually identical guitar that says "Adamas" on it.
Personally, I'd prefer to stick to the vintage market. Like Tony said, you can get a very nice used Adamas II for around the $1200 mark, which is probably as low as we'd ever see a bottom-end version new for anyway. |
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Location: south east Michigan | It sounds like "supply & demand" will eventually correct any current shortage.
And the quantity a thriving carbon fiber top guitar market would use is the proverbial drop in the bucket. |
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Location: Midland, MI | Originally posted by Slipkid:
It sounds like "supply & demand" will eventually correct any current shortage.
And the quantity a thriving carbon fiber top guitar market would use is the proverbial drop in the bucket. Unfortunately, supply and demand curves don't always move like they taught us in ECON101. I say we need to have some sort of law passed to protect our domestic carbon-fiber producers from off-shore pressures (low-wage countries, dumping, etc.) and maybe offer tax incentives for people who buy products produced with this increasingly rare, expensive material. :rolleyes: ;) |
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Location: Snåsa, Norway | If you want a cheap and sturdy guitar, I believe one should look to other materials than carbon fibre or wood for soundboards. Why not look for plastic? An all plastic guitar may sound like this .
Maccaferri made a plastic guitar more than 50 years ago, and materials have evolved a lot since then.
I recently posted a thread on Cool Acoustics but noone here reacted. If the guitars they make sound good, it could be a possiblity to combine their plastic soundboard with the Ovation bowl. If massproduced and sold in large series, I believe they could be really cheap and yet have good and stable quality. |
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Location: South of most, North of few | There was some guy making guitars out of old cigar boxes on Ebay a while ago. Now if only we could find a carbon fiber cigar box... |
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Posts: 2804
Location: ranson,wva | 1 word...academy.
multi hole it and shoot it with a textured finish,add a opp pup and good preamp. use a applesauce or celb type neck......jason |
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Location: CT | ...I'll pass. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Jason is right on. Spray the academy top and put in some decent electronics. BINGO. My damn academy sounds better than half the wood toppd ovations I've owned!
Dave |
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Posts: 4903
Location: Phoenix AZ | Jason is right on. Spray the academy top and put in some decent electronics. BINGO. My damn academy sounds better than half the wood toppd ovations I've owned!
Dave |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | I know there's a carbon fiber shortage, but exactly what's it made out of? Is it made out coal? Oil? Graphite? Shale? Wood? What is the raw material?
Carbon itself is pretty common isn't it? A by-product of burning.
I know it's a fabric set into a resin, like fiber glass, but that fabric ...? |
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Ovation should make a low-cost Adamas
