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Location: Richmond, VA | I'm a long time Ovation fan, got a Balladeer in '72 and have always really liked the way it sounds. I recently got an early '72 Legend and have been disappointed with its lack of bass. Upon reading about it. it seems my opinion is widely shared.
Here's my question, has anyone worked over the VT-11 bracing to improve bass response? What I'm contemplating is trimming, lightening, the heavy main braces, especially the one running down the bass side to allow the face to vibrate more and produce an increased bass response.
That works with other guitars, for example, the difference in response between Martin D-28s and HD-28s with lighter, less rigid bracing.
The Legend is headed into the luthier for some cosmetic stuff, should I ask him to take a finger plane to the big braces too?
Edited by Lefty665 2023-09-17 2:03 PM
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Location: When?? | Have you experimented with various string sets and string combinations to improve bass? If not, then perhaps consider it before making a drastic and permanent change to the bracing. I say so because I was having the same bland bass perception with a 1627 GC Artist, and when I put on some Curt Mangan round core strings of just one notch higher thickness on the E, A and D the whole world changed for the better.
Edited by Love O Fair 2023-09-17 6:31 PM
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Location: Richmond, VA | Interesting thought, I'm using both 92/8 phosphor bronze and 80/20s that have given me very good results on a variety of guitars. Both are medium gauge (13-56).
When you went to heavier gauge E,A and D strings did you go to heavy gauge, or were you moving from lights to mediums? If you were moving up from lights then I've been using the heavier gauge bass strings already.
Thanks for your response. Why I posted here is because I am interested in hearing from folks with wider Ovation experience than I have.
Edited by Lefty665 2023-09-17 8:17 PM
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Location: When?? | @Lefty665 - >>>I've been using the heavier gauge bass strings<<<
The ones I switched to were the 13-56 (or there abouts), so I guess my method wouldn't be the case with your '72 Legend since you've already tried that. However, the new ones I put on were round core instead of hex core, so I'm not certain if that aspect could have had anything to do with such a marked difference. Probably not to any great degree.. though it was the first time I have used round cores since the 1970's and may have just forgotten the difference; hence, I am soon to place new set of same onto a 2000 Balladeer 1771 that has always sounded sappy bland, and I will be interested to see if it helps that one like it did the 1627. Which brings us back to merely different guitars reacting to different things. I"m surprised that the top wood on that old "72 hasn't aged to the point where the bass is rumbling nicely, but if different strings don't cut it then your brace trim idea may in fact be the best solution. I have never done that, so hopefully someone here will chime in on their own experience with it. |
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Location: Richmond, VA | In the FWIW department. I'm using D'Addario PBs and Martin 80/20s. Both I believe are round cores, and medium gauge. Older instruments seem to like the 80/20s better. They're probably more like what was around when the instruments were new and what guitar makers were listening to when they were working on tone,
The Legend sounds good in the mids and trebles, I like that. It falls off as it gets down to the bass, the bottom E especially. Not only is that audible to me, but it is especially true when side by side with the Balladeer of the same vintage. Their serial numbers are less than 1,000 apart and in the low 4 digits so they've had the same amount of time to open up, and at 50+ years old they've had enough time to grow up.
When I found I was not very happy with the Legend I started reading, and to my surprise found there was considerable opinion that was consistent with mine. That may also explain why Ebay seems to have a lot of '70s Legends and not so many from the '80s and newer after they changed to A bracing.
In the other forum I hang out on, UMGF (Martin), there is considerable talk about bracing, what it does, and the effect of changes, like scalloping.. With the common panning of VT-11 I was sort of hoping I'd find some of the same chatter here. and that folks would long ago have settled on what the common wisdom was on bracing adjustments.
What I was thinking about was pretty simple, knocking the top corners off the two heavy braces to both remove some mass and to make them a little less stiff so they vibrate more freely, and lower the frequency they like a little. On Martins (and Ovation LX) they do that by scalloping the braces, sometimes they are also taper the top edges. All I am thinking about is tapering the top edges. The smaller braces that butt up against the larger braces make scalloping a little harder and make me a little anxious about adding scallops where the bracing joins.
It surprises me a little that there is apparently not much history of Ovation folks fiddling with the braces on a bracing pattern with a long standing poor rep for bass response. Again, thanks for your response.
Edited by Lefty665 2023-09-18 8:14 AM
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Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | Based on the no-trapdoor design, shaving the braces with a finger plane would require pretty nimble fingers & wrist flexibility, reaching through the soundhole. I may be mistaken, though, in my estimation of this being a 1617 or 1117 model. Anyrate, go first where you can go easiest. Maybe, drop the tuning a half-step, with heavier bass strings would do the trick- dunno. |
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Location: Utah | Around here the general comment is Ovation models are different flavors of ice cream - some you will like and others will be liked by other people.
Medium strings are not commonly used on Ovations. I expect by changing the gauges you would change the balance. Maybe try light tops and medium bottoms?
How is the break angle at the nut and saddle?
The finish on some eras of Ovation was thick. Perhaps taking it down thinner would help. |
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Location: Richmond, VA | Hi guys, thanks for the responses. Couple of thoughts. First, scalloping and other trimming of braces is commonly done through the sound hole, so I don't believe that's a barrier, even if it takes a small knife or chisel. Yes, you're right, it is a 1117, and the Balladeer is a 1111. I'm reluctant to tune down and use heavier bass strings. FWIW. I've happily used medium strings on the Balladeer for 50 years without a problem. They sound great and project well. Although it's frowned on, I've used it picking Bluegrass. It holds its own and can keep a Mastertone in line. The sound out of that guitar is what got it off the wall in the music store and home with me all those years ago.
In general we get sound out of a guitar by driving the top, and medium strings drive harder than lights. Break angle at the saddle is good, same as the Balladeer, at the nut it is what it is, and again the headstock angle is the same as on the Balladeer. Yes, the finish is thick, also as it is on the Balladeer. The heavy poly finish has surprised me on Ovations, other brands tend to favor thin nitro finishes. But, my old Balladeer has that finish too and it sounds great, so that's not a variable that I can hear makes a difference. That makes me reluctant to go after the finish. Although finish is more easily accessible than braces that seems a bigger job than trimming braces.
Your ice cream analogy is a good one and borne out in postings. What surprised me a little was that there seems to be little interest in fiddling with the flavors. Again with other brands there's an interest in taking flavors that are not well liked by some and tweaking them to brighten up the taste, The use of technology was one of the things that attracted me to Ovation in the first place, I have little doubt that someone there liked the way the VT-11 bracing sounded and it hit sound measuring goals they liked. Otherwise it would not have seen the light of day, especially on a guitar that was the top of the line at the time, and more expensive than the Deluxe Balladeer it grew out of.
The initial sound tests at Ovation were done on a pre war Martin D-45, a monster of a model and very high standard to measure by. Fewer than 100 of those were made and incredibly they trade for close to half a million bucks these days. My Balladeer picks up a lot of those sound qualities along with the focus and projection Ovation got out of the unobstructed by braces parabolic deep bowl. The drop off in the bass on the Legend seems likely an intentional departure from that original sound model.
Several years ago there was a wonderful post here on an Ovation that was rebuilt. He used a torrified top and changed the bracing pattern for the new top. It apparently sounded great, but that's an awful lot of work. I'm thinking of something far more modest with hopefully good sonic results. I want to keep the lively mids and highs and just extend that presence to the bass strings, mostly the bottom E.
I could just hang with the old guitar I like, and put the Legend back up on Ebay, but it's a nice guitar and a pretty sunburst and I'd like to tweak the sound so I liked playing it too. If something as simple as trimming a brace would do it that is a small price to pay. Ovation made high quality guitars, on a par with Martin and better than Gibson so I'd like to hang onto this one.
Thanks for y'alls responses.
Edited by Lefty665 2023-09-18 1:00 PM
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Location: Utah | Have you listened to that guitar while someone else plays it? Ovations, more than wood boxes, sound different to the player vs the audience. |
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Location: Richmond, VA | I have not. But I am comparing the sound to a Balladeer I have had for a long time, that I know what it sounds like and that I like the sound of very much. I started reading here on OFC after finding myself underwhelmed by the bass response of the Legend, To my surprise there is considerable opinion here spread over years that is consistent with my hearing of the sound. So I don't think it is just me not hearing what the guitar is producing.
All factory made guitars depend on having their materials match the specs. Factories generally do not tune or tap test tops and/or thin them or trim braces to tune top response. Ovation has a leg up in that the bowls are remarkably uniform. That leaves tops to vary, and they all do to some extent. That's why all guitars sound different. It may be that this top varied in stiffness or density from the spec and prototype instruments, and that is why it sounds like it does. If so there are a bunch of Legends out here that also vary. What that may tell us is that VT-11 bracing is less tolerant of top wood variance than X bracing. That also goes to why I am asking about others experience in trimming braces to change a Legend's response.
You are right, guitars can sound very different from behind and from the front. The Ovation bowl makes it easy, some think too easy , to tip up so you hear more of the sound coming out of the sound hole while playing.
During covid I had to quit gigging and spent considerable time playing on line with folks on Jamulus. That spoiled me because I was hearing my guitars through a good mic and headphones. They all sounded better than they do from behind when playing.
Thanks for your response.
Edited by Lefty665 2023-09-18 5:59 PM
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Location: SoCal | Interesting subject Lefty. I had a 1978 Legend with the VT bracing. Maybe the worst sounding guitar ever. No bass, ok mids and treble. The solution is to got an A braced Legend built after 1981. Solves every issue.
Now having said that, I never considered shaving the braces. I'm curious as to how that will work and want to hear more. Along with positng here, post this thread on the facebook Ren-Ovation group board. They would really love to watch this process. |
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Location: Richmond, VA | Thanks for the response. I sure would not call mine the worst sound ever, but the bass response is certainly not something that I'd write home about. Enough so that I'm looking at surgery to make it better.
I've a long standing aversion to Facebook, so am not likely to post there, although that sounds interesting. I may head over to Acoustic Guitar Forum, it looks like there may be more luthier types hanging out there. I'm a little surprised there are not some here. Curious. There's multiple long threads about bracing on the Martin forum and some really good luthiers, but they're not big Ovation fans.
I've got very little in the guitar so I'm likely to knock the top edges off the large braces to remove some mass and maybe make the top a little more flexible or resonate at a slightly lower frequency just to see what that does. It's not likely to hurt much and it would not take a lot of change to transform the guitar. I do like the mids and treble. It is really pretty nice until it comes down and goes thunk on the bottom string.
Anyone know what the VT stands for in the bracing nomenclature? V Transverse is about all I could come up with. |
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Location: SoCal | Very Terrible? Don't know if this will work for you but here's a link to Ren-Ovation on facebook. It really is where you want to go.....
https://www.facebook.com/groups/430219338904914 |
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Location: When?? | Like I really know what I'm talking about here (not), but what would happen if you were to scallop them yourself. Say a piece of 1/2" dowel with sandpaper around it.. or even a round file of appropriate size that will fit in the space and angle.. and just sand perpendicular across the length of the brace. Maybe go 1/8" (or so) deep at a time at whatever locations you deem fit, then string it up and see if that helps. If not, go another 1/8th, and so on. Irreversible, I know. But that's about all I know. It's just something that I have pictured in mind as a possibility to remove mass in what may be the more applicable spots to suit your motive of brace flexibility instead of shaving all the way along the length.
PS: There are, in fact, some very capable luthiers here on the OFC who are tremendously Ovation savvy, but they seem to be pretty quiet lately.
Edited by Love O Fair 2023-09-22 6:23 AM
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Location: Utah | The original question is interesting - why don't O/A owners mod their guitars?
Maybe because, until recently, buyers played a guitar before choosing it. So the buyer liked it well enough already, and thus wouldn't want to change it. Maybe because of the materials, acoustic engineering, and manufacturing methods we don't feel we are likely to improve it. Maybe because historically O/A were more advanced than old fashioned wood boxes, to include electronics.
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Location: Richmond, VA | Hi guys, thanks for the responses.
I've been thinking about just knocking the edges off the braces rather than actually scalloping them. In that way both reducing mass, making them a little less stiff and lowering the resonant frequency of the top. FWIW taller thinner braces is the way Gibson did them for years, so I'm thinking about heading more in that direction rather than like Martin and Taylor when they scallop. I'm also a little anxious about how far I could safely scallop those already not very tall main braces. I'll be talking to a good luthier I work with, He's also a builder and I respect him. His judgement will be in the drivers seat since he will be doing the work, if any. I will pass along what he thinks, and hopefully eventually a much expanded VT-11 sound.
I hear you on not buying any guitar you don't like the sound of, and that's generally been my standard over the years. I've got a Balladeer I bought in '72 because it sounded so good it jumped off the wall into my arms. I got this Legend off Ebay because it was in excellent condition, the serial number was very close to my guitar and it seemed the model was more a renamed Deluxe Balladeer than significantly changed. The Balladeer has X bracing. Silly me, but now I'm interested in the challenge of helping the Legend live up to its heritage.
I'd also like to know what the folks at Ovation heard in VT-11 bracing that they liked better than X bracing. Anyone know any of that history? They perked up the mids and trebles for Glenn Campbell by creating the slightly shallower Artist bowl. But I don't understand what inspired them to make an even bigger change in the sound of deep bowl guitars. Curious.
There is a lot of interest on the Martin site about adjusting bracing to make guitars sound better, and arguably most of them sound pretty good to begin with. So I don't think it's because they all sound so good from the get go that nobody wants to fool with them. Long ago I was impressed by the extensive audio testing Ovation did. as well as their modern manufacturing. I still am, the quality is as good or better than any, and the necks may be the nicest I have ever played. The results in my old Balladeer convinced me that they were on the right track, also that they had a vintage Martin they used as the model and standard when testing. The Ovations I have are pre electronic and I have not had much interest in later instruments although I appreciate, and lived through, the revolution they brought to acoustic electric. I'm personally of the opinion that a mic'd guitar will always sound better than one with a pickup so learned how to run PA and have gigged using a mic on a good sounding acoustic guitar. If I wanted to use a pickup, it would not matter much what it was, a piezo is pretty much a piezo no matter who makes it.
Edited by Lefty665 2023-09-22 7:21 PM
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Location: When?? | It will be interesting to hear what your luthier suggests. Also interesting that the sides of the braces being tall (per your Gibson example) instead of more flat would increase the response. I would think just the opposite since the vibration is lateral across the sound board, hence more flex if the profile of the brace is lower. Could be that a loss of structure support was more along the priority lines of Gibson's thinking on that rather than tonal.. but.. then again.. I am not a guitar builder or a physics expert.
And I fully agree with you guys about the purchase mode of any instrument. I recall the olden days of making many trips to music stores when intent on purchasing.. as well as the extended pondering that came with it, sometimes for weeks-- prospecting that something new may come along in the meantime.. yet also hoping that someone else didn't buy your leading choice before you got back to settling on it. Back when a town with a population of 40,000 had three or more music stores staffed by people you knew personally, and a prudent buyer wouldn't even consider something as abstract as a mail order (eBay-type) purchase unless it was maybe a basic beginner model for your kid. Glory days, 'eh?
Edited by Love O Fair 2023-09-22 9:38 PM
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Location: Richmond, VA | Went over to Ren Ovation on Facebook to look around. Lots of stuff, but not much Ovation. Sorta disappointing. |
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Location: Richmond, VA | FWIW. The taller thinner braces were Gibson's choice up until around '54 when they began to look much more like Martin and others. Dunno why they made those choices in the first place or why they changed. Some of those old AJs and J35/45s sound pretty good though.
I'm neither a builder or an expert either. I am at this point really curious about the VT-11 bracing. The Legend cost a hundred bucks more than the Balladeer back then so there must have been something driving the change in bracing for the top of the line guitar. It was not casual or to make it sound worse. It is interesting that they switched mostly to A bracing as they got into the '80s. I've got one of those, it's another story entirely, and I like it as much as my old Balladeer, so somebody's taste in sound changed significantly. The similar great sound of those two guitars is why I took the flier on the Legend, it seemed likely it would sound similar to the others I bought because of how they sounded. Nope, silly me. Live and learn. That's also why I started learning about Ovation bracing patterns.
Glory Days indeed. I remember vintage D-18/28s trading out of trunks and pickups at festivals for $200-$300 and back then they were just stinky beat up old Martins. Everybody wanted a shiny new D-28, but most of us couldn't afford them. I did get a pawn shop D-18 back then which was what I could afford. 50+ years later I'm still playing it.There were a few years I alternated between it and the Balladeer. Gigging in the '70s Ovations had more cachet than they do today. The Balladeer doesn't go out much anymore, but it still can hold its own in a Bluegrass jam. It's also fun to take it to an Old Time jam and watch folks recoil. At 50+ it's older than a lot of instruments out there.
Edited by Lefty665 2023-09-22 11:14 PM
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Location: Richmond, VA | Just played another Legend, this one a '78 that is acoustic electric. Unplugged it has better balance than my acoustic one. The acoustic electric, 1617, sounds more like my old Balladeer. Is it possible Ovation engineered the VT-11 bracing for the becoming hugely popular acoustic electric instruments, and the sound of the becoming less popular strictly acoustic Legend 1117 was just collateral damage? Tweaking the bracing to compensate for the new under saddle piezo transducer seems like something engineers would do. The Legend would have been the first instrument designed specifically with under saddle pickup in mind. They might have assembled all the tops in one process and decided later in production which ones were going to be electric, and which ones strictly acoustic with production mix shifting more and more to acoustic electric over time. Curious, and a little surprising.
The '71 price list shows both acoustic and acoustic electric Balladeers and Artists. The '72 catalog shows those and both flavors of Legends. The rocket ship was lifting off.
Anyone have any idea about differences in sound between early acoustic and acoustic electric Balladeers with X bracing?
Edited by Lefty665 2023-09-23 6:41 PM
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Location: When?? | @Lefty665 - >>>Is it possible Ovation engineered the VT-11 bracing for the becoming hugely popular acoustic electric instruments, and the sound of the becoming less popular strictly acoustic Legend 1117 was just collateral damage?<<<
If I were standing at a casino sports book counter to make a bet on it, that would be the one I'd make. At least until further is learned.
>>>Anyone have any idea about differences in sound between early acoustic and acoustic electric Balladeers with X bracing?<<<
I have a 1981 Custom Balladeer (1112-1 acoustic-only) that I bought new back in those good ol' music store days and it thunders so loud and rich across all tones that it rattles dishes and cracks plaster; however, I am not certain at the moment what the brace pattern is. "A", I think, but I would have to look it up for sure. Its aged top wood has has also helped to increased the rumble over the years. I also have a 1968 Deluxe Balladeer shiny bowl which I know for certain is an "X" brace (so old the braces have lightly ghosted through the sunburst finish), and it rumbles the same dishes and plaster.. almost.. as much as the 1981 does. But since both are acoustic only they cannot be compared to the first scenario above. |
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Location: Richmond, VA | Me too and it is certainly a good answer to the question I posed above, why VT-11 when X arguably (at least in my experience) gives remarkably good results. The hazard to dishes and plaster is what got that Balladeer off the wall at the music store with me back then too. I don't remember what the other Ovations were, there were a half dozen or so, it's a long time ago. That Balladeer stuck way way out from the rest and it was the least expensive. I remember thinking this is funny, I like the sound of this one by far the best and it's the cheapest of the bunch. A 180 bucks with tax and a set of strings brought it home.
I'm just wondering what adding pickups did to X braced Balladeers. If they became less phenomenal acoustically when pickups were added it would add strength to the proposition that VT-11 was developed to retain acoustic quality in acoustic electric versions. The acoustic electric revolution was spectacular and Ovation must have thought they'd arrived in Heaven.
In the '72 catalog the Balladeer was $265, the Legend $365 and the Electric Legend $504. That's a hundred bucks premium for the diamonds in the neck, and close to twice the price for the Electric Legend over the poor old Balladeer. In addition to the addition of Legend acoustic electrics there were electric versions of the other guitars they were making too. But it looks like the Legend was the only new for '72 model. As an idea how spectacular it was is that for most of the '70s Ovation outsold Martin 2 or 3 to 1, and the Electric Legend listed for more than a D-28. Heady times.
It looks like around '80 they developed A bracing that seems to work well with both acoustic and electric models, so that replaced the earlier bracing models and the story ends. At least it pauses for about the next 25 years until they readopted (scalloped) LX bracing. Then of course there was that Adamas/Elite bracing excursion starting also around '80.
'72 Ovation price list. http://ovationtribute.com/Catalogues/1972%20US%20Price%20List/1972%...
This stuff is sort of fun. Thanks for playing with me.
Edited by Lefty665 2023-09-24 1:03 AM
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Location: SoCal | Lefty665 - 2023-09-22 8:37 PM
Went over to Ren Ovation on Facebook to look around. Lots of stuff, but not much Ovation. Sorta disappointing.
Interesting that you say that as it's a site devoted to Ovation repair and what you are doing would be very very interesting to most of the folks there.
I never understood the attraction of the VT bracing pattern. My first O was an acoustic only Artist (1972) and my second, 78 Legend 1117. They sounded HORRIBLE, but I really wanted to play Ovations.
In 2004, with the LX models, Ovation went to mid bowls and X bracing. Good guitars but not guitars I'd play next to a good Martin or Gibson. This year, Ovation came out with 2 USA built guitars, A Legend and an Elite, both deep bowl and with A and Quintad bracing respectively. Obviously they are going for serious acoustic sound. I like this as the 2 guitars next to me are, both from 1983, a 1537 and a 1117 (Legend). Quintad and A braced, deep bowls. And I have played both next toi Martins and Gibsons and not felt under gunned.
Now to get Ovation to build them with torrified tops and braces...... |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | If my recollection is correct (I was a teenager) the genesis of the different VT bracings was to differentiate the sound of the various models. Ovation didn't have the freedom of different body sizes (dread, jumbo, om, etc.) that other builder had, so basically in the early days all models were the same thing with just different levels of ornamentation i.e. inlays, gold tuners, bound neck, etc. The idea of the various VT bracings was to give each model a different "voice". Some of the voices were good and some were poor. All just part of the evolution. |
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Location: Richmond, VA | Moody, maybe I just hit them on an off evening, but there were about 3 or 4 to 1 non Ovation to Ovation postings. They were food, remodeling and other stuff not Ovation.
The Custom Elite LX I recently played sounded pretty good, the sound was distinctly Ovation, it projected well and played well with the group. The electronic FX were a pleasant surprise, much like Fishman's Aura, an acoustic image that gets blended with the signal coming out of the pickup. Guess that's not surprising considering that Aura was Fishman's response when they figured out that all piezo signals suck and that they're all the same. Unplugged it certainly sounded more like my old Balladeer than the VT-11 Legend I've been grumbling about. I liked it. Funny that they've come back to X bracing, and with scallops and a bridge plate. Curious. That contour bowl is fairly deep, although it has lost its parabola. It is comfortable. Guess there's no free lunch, and too much lunch may have caused some of the interference between deep bowls and stomachs.
I've got a newer A braced artist bowl (GC) that sounds very much like my old X braced Balladeer, good bass but a little brighter mids and trebles. Seemingly just what Campbell was looking for to stand out. It and the Balladeer play wonderfully together and both stand up well to other guitars. Fiddle tunes with one playing lead and the other rhythm are a joy. While not widely publicized Tony Rice played an Ovation on the lead cut on his Manzanita CD, as well as on several other cuts on that album. So much for old 58957. I'd place them as better than most Gibsons and approaching, but a different sound than most Martins, although I confess I'm spoiled by the sound of old Martins. Other guitars have a tough job where they're concerned.
Thought I read that towards the end Ovation did a run of about 50 with torrified red spruce tops. They were touted as Bluegrass guitars. Too bad you can't torrify bowls too. Take that Ovation back to 1937 and have Kaman tell Sikorsky he can keep his helicopters, the future is guitars |
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VT-11 bracing improvements
