|
|
Joined:
December 2014
Posts: 1713
Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | I am afraid to open the new (old) guitars coming to my house.
I have only had 2 so far that did not crack once I took them out of the case.
I sent 2 back to the Mini-Mothership, but I can't afford to keep doing that.
Even the Patriot that I just got last night... it arrived in PERFECT, MINT condition.
I had let the box sit for 8 hours (it isn't winter here anymore), then let the case sit out for a while, then peeked in to take a look and a photo.
I opened it about 1-1/2 hours later to find a deep crack from the bottom center of the bridge running down towards the bottom. I am just crushed.
I wrote John Budny about it, and asked if he could suggest anything I needed to do different, but he said that I am doing things right. What am I doing wrong???
I had sent Humidipaks to the Seller, and he put them in the guitar a couple of months before shipping to humidify the guitar (I knew it had not been touched in a long time). And when I initially opened the case, it was Pristine. Now there is a very nasty crack, and this is happening all the time to me. I have only had 2 Guitars out of 10 that did not crack AFTER I had opened them. They were both oldies ('76 & '81), and the others that cracked were from that time, and forward. Picture 1 is the Patriot right after I opened it, and Picture 2 is after I opened it)
Can you please tell me what to do, so that I don't ruin these Incredible Pieces??? I have 2 coming back from John soon, and a couple more Rarer Collectible Pieces coming in, and I am too afraid right now to open them when they arrive!
Could my house be so dry that it is sucking the moisture out of these guitars when I open them??? It is very, very humid in MN (outside) all year round, but in the cold we run furnaces 24/7, and I know it is drier. Should I get a humidifier and get my house moist like a greenhouse before opening another case??? I am at a loss, and don't want to spend the money on these guitars, if I know they will just be ruined at my house....
Thank You in Advance for your thoughts and suggestions, I am just at a loss... 
 (Patriot Arrived.jpg)
 (Patriot Opened.jpg)
Attachments
----------------
 Patriot Arrived.jpg (76KB - 0 downloads)
Patriot Opened.jpg (55KB - 0 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 848
Location: Canada | I am so sorry to hear - almost sounds like you have a haunted house. In February I bought a Guild Orpheum that also arrived with several long finish cracks after acclimatizing for 24h, though it had traveled through extreme temperatures/customs from New York to Saskatchewan, and is known for its delicate nitrocellulose lacquer. I always thought that Ovations had an almost bomb proof finish, so am very surprised about your experiences. And BTW, the Orf is so awesome that I don't even give the cracks a second thought.
Edited by d'ovation 2015-04-07 5:05 PM
|
|
| |
|
Joined:
September 2012
Posts: 811
Location: Thredbo, NSW, Australia | Oh Nancy, I'm so sorry to hear this. I really feel for you.
|
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12755
Location: Boise, Idaho | Nancy, it doesn't really matter how humid it is outside. If your furnace is running it dries out the air inside the house. We don't get close to the cold that you get and it is all I can do to keep the humidity up to 40% in one room in the winter. Get a hygrometer and let us know what your inside humidity is. I'll bet it's under 20. Sorry this is too late. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2003
Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | Something is wrong besides the crack...look at the decal on Nancy's Patriot v. the original decal.
 (1776-1.JPG)
 (del.gif)
Attachments
----------------
1776-1.JPG (13KB - 0 downloads)
del.gif (21KB - 0 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2014
Posts: 1713
Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | Great eye Tony!!!
There is almost no Gold Tone on the decal. I noticed that too, Even up close, you can barely make out the dates, and the wheat and drum accents are almost non-existent. But the Nutmeg color is rich and deep, and that neck.... Oh My that neck is amazing, like it is custom made for my hand!
Great Eye for Detail Tony! 
... After looking at it right now, and comparing it with your picture, there is no red, and very muted blue too...
Edited by naellis58 2015-04-07 7:21 PM
|
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2003
Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | Almost looks like someone painted it; no staff for the flag, no drumsticks, etc. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2014
Posts: 1713
Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | Thank you everyone - Question?
I started thinking about how each guitar was sent to me, and all of them BUT the 1619 and 1651 the strings were all set and tuned. The 1619 and 1651's strings were very loose, and those 2 are fine (Thank God!!!). Could that be it??????
If I loosen the strings immediately after I open them, until the opened guitar acclimated, would that make a difference???? Good Lord, If I find out something as simple as that is what ruined all those Guitars, I am going to scream bloody murder!!!!!
What do you think???
Edited by naellis58 2015-04-07 7:32 PM
|
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2014
Posts: 1713
Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | Mark in Boise - 2015-04-07 6:14 PM
Nancy, it doesn't really matter how humid it is outside. If your furnace is running it dries out the air inside the house. We don't get close to the cold that you get and it is all I can do to keep the humidity up to 40% in one room in the winter. Get a hygrometer and let us know what your inside humidity is. I'll bet it's under 20. Sorry this is too late.
Will do! Thank You Mark!!! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2014
Posts: 1713
Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | Mark in Boise - 2015-04-07 6:14 PM
Nancy, it doesn't really matter how humid it is outside. If your furnace is running it dries out the air inside the house. We don't get close to the cold that you get and it is all I can do to keep the humidity up to 40% in one room in the winter. Get a hygrometer and let us know what your inside humidity is. I'll bet it's under 20. Sorry this is too late.
32%, so it is low... I need to get that up to 40% right? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2003
Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | Always a good idea to drop the tension of the strings (i.e., 1/2 step) but I have had many guitars come in at 440. Probably better to have 40-50% but 32% isn't that bad. I keep my guitars at approximately 40% and have not had cracks. Sure shouldn't have caused cracks that quickly. Looks to me that the guitar(s) was deprived for some time or a combination of mishandling in transit (i.e., force if box dropped since the crack is in the lower bout). |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 4044
Location: Utah | With your quick peek are you really seeing a crack if it is there? Your humidity is within safe limits. The Royal Instrument Museum in London keeps their facility at 30%, and they have many wooden instruments which are centuries old. I can't believe a crack would form in a few hours at 30% humidity even if the guitar came from the wet tropics.
The factory ships guitars tuned to concert pitch. While I think this is an unnecessary risk, there is obviously not a major problem or the factory would not do it.
Which leads me to think either the crack is there but you aren't seeing it, or something else is going one besides humidity. Is there any evidence of crush damage to the case? Is your UPS/FedEx driver dropping the box hard? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2014
Posts: 1713
Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | That is what I thought at first, that it was rough handling during shipping, but so many of them cracked *after* I had already opened them. I have to be doing something wrong. I just need to know what, so that I can keep them safe and whole.
FlySig - I actually took a picture of the Patriot (above) as soon as I peeked, and took it out of the case and looked pretty closely for cracks. That is why I was so shocked when I opened it 1-1/2 hours later and the crack was sticking up. On the N769 too, I took the pictures and posted them in an album here, then actually did not tune or touch the guitar for 4 days, so that it could *rest* before I tuned her or played her. When I opened the case after those 4 days there was a 12" crack running from above the hole to below the bridge. She is at the Mini-Mothership right now being fixed. That Guitar is just too Beautiful to be defaced like that. The same thing happened to my CE778, a crack from the bridge on down.
But I know they cannot fix the Patriot without losing the decal. So I either leave the crack and have a Patriot, or get the crack fixed and have a brown guitar, either way it is still a Wonderful guitar. It is just so frustrating to have it happen to these Gorgeous pieces, and if we can figure out what I am doing wrong, Or need to do differently, then they will stay as they were when I bought them. It breaks my heart, and I can't afford to keep sending them in.
Ok, is it possible that the wood expands or contracts from being sealed in the case, and when I open it, then re-close it, that the wood is still moving, and the confines/pressure of the case cause the crack? Would I do better to take it out of the case and leave it out for several days????
Edited by naellis58 2015-04-07 10:55 PM
|
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2014
Posts: 704
Location: moline,illinois | Hey sorry to hear about your misfortune,its a shame.Are you sure they cracked after they'd been sitting awhile,in your first picture of the patriot it looks like theres already a small crack coming off the right side of the bridge and dark finishes could hide the crack,a drop from a height could cause a crack so mishandling is a possibility.If you want to make sure its not mishandling in the future when its time to open it up don't just peek but take it out and do a full inspection in a humidified room. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1034
Location: Yokohama, Japan | naellis58 - 2015-04-07 12:26 PM
Ok, is it possible that the wood expands or contracts from being sealed in the case, and when I open it, then re-close it, that the wood is still moving, and the confines/pressure of the case cause the crack? Would I do better to take it out of the case and leave it out for several days????
Oh no...my heart goes out to you naellis58! I've never heard of top cracks happening the way you describe. I have no solution to offer, but it get's really humid and dry over here in Japan (especially during the summers). I try to keep my guitars in relatively consistent temperature and humidity, but when you have to play them...well you have to play them and I notice that my 1861's top gets pretty wavy on hot humid days and levels off on cooler drier days...scary to look at, but thankfully it hasn't cracked. My more traditional woodbox acoustics seem to be less sensitive to weather/humidity changes...weird.
I do hope things get resolved for you. Do you put humidifiers or dessicants in your guitar cases? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2014
Posts: 1713
Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | arumako - 2015-04-08 9:12 AM
naellis58 - 2015-04-07 12:26 PM
...I do hope things get resolved for you. Do you put humidifiers or dessicants in your guitar cases?
Thank You so much Arumako!
I use the Humidipaks in the cases, and this one had a set in when it arrived (I had sent them to the Seller, and he put them in a couple months before sending ), and I have new ones in there now. I am going to put it in the bathroom today, and run the shower to get some good humidity going, so that nothing else happens.
I guess I had better get my Nan-Cave going, so that I can have an area that is temperature and humidity perfect. I have everything picked out, I just need to get the hangers in, and the wall holder board stained and up.
Thank You all for your suggestions, and thoughts. I had thought there might be something obvious that I am doing wrong, but it seems it is just bad luck. I will work on getting the humidity up higher though, it can't hurt!
Edited by naellis58 2015-04-08 10:26 AM
|
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2004
Posts: 137
Location: Fitzwilliam, New Hampshire | I wonder if the wide variety of temperature changes during shipment can be the root cause? I fear selling a guitar that gets shipped across the U.S. for that very reason. I've sold a few electrics and package them very carefully but the environment is not controlled from one end to the other which can make for some potential issues. Ever leave a guitar in a car overnight? Cracks in the finish will ensue! My Tele has them! Lesson learned! Even solid bodies can go thru this. Even if the guitar was perfect when packaged its then subjected to storage temperatures, truck temps, Sometimes they could sit on an open loading dock exposed to elements until loaded on the truck, etc? Who knows???? That's a bummer for sure to have such a nice piece suddenly crack. My collectors shallow bowl has lived thru so much over the years and only in the past 10 years have I started to use a humidifier. Never gave it much thought until reading stories on forums like this! However, it's still perfect(knock on wood)!! I guess I should be thankful! I burn wood and pellets and my house is usually dry even with a humidifier running daily. All my acoustics have done ok but I never leave them in a car overnight, even in the summer! Once you hand it to the shipper there's a period of time where temperature can swing widely. Even if insured, unless the damage shows upon receipt it's not a valid claim? Its too bad they don't have a portable environmental analyzer (with memory) so the variables could be tracked in the case as a guitar ships to its destination! That might provide a valuable piece of info for reference. Some thoughts. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2015
Posts: 50
| So... I'm confused. Is it a Patriot or not? What accounts for the difference between the decals? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12755
Location: Boise, Idaho | They are both Patriots. Neither has a decal. Both have stencils. One is faded, the other isn't. It happens. There used to be a lot of names on doors in gold paint. After a few years of sun exposure the shine would go off the gold. Our former sign painter might chime in with an explanation of how that happens. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2014
Posts: 1713
Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | That New Guy - 2015-04-08 2:47 PM
So... I'm confused. Is it a Patriot or not? What accounts for the difference between the decals?
Hi New Guy!!!
Yeppers, it is most definitely a Patriot, it was just different to see a washed out stencil. My big upset was not with the stencil, but with the crack... But these guys are THE BEST, and if they say I am doing everything okay, then I just need to learn how not to be so OCD, and be Happy that I have one of these incredibly Beautiful, Rare and Uncommonly Great Guitars!!!
Either that, or only buy crack resistant Adamas, and I don't think that is in the budget!!!
You Guys Are THE BEST!!! Thank you so much for taking the time to help me, and letting me know that I am not screwing up, I am not cursed, it just is, and I am still very lucky to have these pieces! I appreciate your help SO much!!!! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
April 2010
Posts: 823
Location: sitting at my computer | naellis58 - ... I just need to learn how not to be so OCD... Oh it's perfectly fine to have OCD around here, in fact Ovation Collecting Distraction is greatly encouraged!   Too bad about that crack, but maybe after the top's rehydrated and stabilized, a cyano glue treatment can minimize the damage. Check out some of the BFLG "Repair a crack" threads  |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2014
Posts: 1713
Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | LMBO SOBeach!!!!!!
I have a wish list at StewMac for all the pipettes and glues and sanding pads! I want to learn to fix surface cracks, I certainly have enough here to fix!!! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2004
Posts: 137
Location: Fitzwilliam, New Hampshire | I just fixed a couple of dings in my Guild J30 using StewMac's video and it was really helpful! SuperGlue used to fill the dings and then following Dan's video I used a makeshift scraper from a single edge razor blade, then various grades of sandpaper and finished up using one of their polishing compounds and swirl mark removers! Came out pretty good for an amateur! Patience is the key but, not sure how I'd address cracks in the finish.
However,
sometimes the cracks are just part of the aging process if the instrument travels at all. Having seen various artists over the years, touring has the same affect on instruments as shipping and cracks do occur and seldom affect the sound. If its a perfect museum piece you desire, then they likely need to stay in one climate controlled place for the duration. If played and moved about, traveling etc its likely a crack or two with a few dings and scratches will occur. I have been fortunate as mentioned that my Collectors SB has survived well. Still waiting for the eventual crack to occur but so far so good. I always thought it would happen much sooner given how many times its been knocked over on a crowded stage and thrown into the back seat at 2:00 AM after a gig. Its survived remarkably well!
Saw a young woman from Toronto who opened up for Livingston Taylor a few weeks ago and from the side, the lighting showed numerous cracks running horizontally on her Taylor! It's the luck of the draw and as frustrating as it can be, its impossible to pinpoint when, if or how these things happen to our precious instruments. I've learned to accept fate and focus on the sound!! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2014
Posts: 1713
Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | Thank You Gary! That is the same video I watched too! I am happy that it worked for you, I need to skew up the courage to try it too! I have a pretty healthy Wish-List going over there at StewMac! LOL!!
I have read the articles here in the Archives about repairing cracks, and think after taking a Xanax or two (to steady my hands for something so delicate) I might be able to try it. I have a '76 1124-4 that someone abused pretty thoroughly, but they managed to hide it in the pics, so I have a great older piece to practice on. My only problems are patience and staying focused. But I want to learn to do this really badly, so I can make myself focus (hopefully).
|
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2003
Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | Ad for the Patriot
 (1776-AD.JPG)
Attachments
----------------
1776-AD.JPG (73KB - 0 downloads)
|
|
| |
Any help would be much appreciated...
