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Location: Waterloo, IL | I was talking with a friend of mine recently about barr chords. He is a tough guy to catch up with, so did not get to talk with him very long. He has played guitar professionally. I had asked him about barr chords, as I have been having difficulty with them. He suggested using inside chords, saying that they are popular with jazz players.
I would like more information on how to play these inside chords. Thanks. :confused: |
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Location: Cicero, NY | This has to rate as one of the best questions I've heard asked around this Board in a long time. Not that there aren't other good and legitimate questions, there are. But I think this one could enlighten players on a lot of different levels. Thanks, Chuck. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | When I first read that I was thinking of making "E" and "A" shapes up and down the neck without the index finger barre....
Then I found THIS
Any help? |
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Location: NW Washington State | Disclaimer: I'm a crappy guitar player- really nonplayer- and don't know my plectrum from a hole in the ground. But I'm really interested in this stuff, so here are a few ideas and resources. Worth every penny you paid for 'em.
I have (had?) a chord chart that had a special section of "inside" 4-string chords. All were played on the 5th thru 2nd strings. I have lots of other chord and jazz books, but don't remember seeing this emphasized anywhere else.
Barre chords are great for strumming and accompanying yourself. But some people would say that they're too big and sloppy. One type of "jazz" chord voicing uses fewer, carefully chosen notes. Here are some examples with 7th chords.
Kent Murdick has a series of videos on YouTube where he covers some similar chords.
Here is a page that compares some rhythm styles. The first part shows some four-string chords that might be the "inside" type. The rest look look like jazz rhythm chords that have been pared down to the essentials to fit into a jazz combo.
Hope this helps!
-Steve W. |
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Posts: 2120
Location: Chicago | Well, the short story is this: instead of using a bar (index finger) you decide which notes you really need and fret ONLY those notes. These are usually movable forms and I'll bet that you know some already. You may know the "Hendrix" chord (E7#9 x7678x) that turns up in "Foxy Lady". This chord can slide up and down the neck. Or the smooth-sounding Eminor9 (x7577x)....
Dobro Hint #76: I suggest using your ear to find PLEASING chord "forms" or "shapes" that you can "hear" and move freely up and down the neck. Shop around IN THIS FIELD OF FORMS Find a form you like, move it around, experiment, and ask what IS this thing and how can I use it (where's the root so I can put it in the right place when I need it)?
Naturally it helps to know how chords are generated from a given scale: Root, 3rd, 5th, 7th. What's an extension? What's an altered tone? (you'll need to know the fingerboard.)
Depending on your level, you might Google the concept "Drop 2 guitar chord" "Drop 3 guitar chord" to get to the heart of the matter.
Examples: Drop 2 chords
Or a personal favorite: DIATONIC CHORDS int he style of Eric Johnson & Holdsworth.
If any of this is just gibberish, worry not: there are easy points of entry that will have you playing "inside chords" quickly and with pleasure... just let me know. |
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Location: NW Washington State | Dobro, where can we find Hints #1 thru #75? :) |
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Location: Marlton, NJ | Greg - very cool stuff! Would you recommend the books by the SheetsofSound guy? They look pretty interesting.
Great topic Chuck! |
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Location: Chicago | Seriously: the next step is to ask VERY specific questions, like "how is a 7th chord constructed"? Or I have this progression x-y-z: how do I play it with "inside chords"? How do I "spruce up" a simple progression?
Most simple and beautiful forms can "wear several hats". For example: the three-note inversion xx6x57 will do nicely for E major and C#min7 (rootless). You can do ALL sortsa stuff with the form xx5668 (its a dom7 with a 9th a min7b5 etc.) Enharmonic awareness!
The Ear is supreme commander in all this: if it sounds good, use it! |
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Location: SoCal | I do something similar to this but on a very simplistic level when I play with the band at church. I don't read music, just chord charts. There are times when the chords on the charts that I'm given move very fast. You can't make complete chords and stay up with the music, so I just figure out what notes within the chord I real need and grab those. A lot of times I'm just implying a chord. Makes it a lot easier to get thru a fast passage..... |
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Location: Chicago | Right on! That was my first seat-of-the-pants lesson too: In jazz ensemble (Los Altos High School, CA) I was struggling with these ridiculous chords in the chart. Six-string monsters with names like D#11b9/C#. The bandleader (a cool dude named Taber) said this: "Freddie Green played guitar in the Basie Band for years. Most of the time he only played TWO strings. There are fundamentally only TWO types of chords: the maj/min type and the dominant seventh. For one you can play a third of some sort (the notes, say, G and B close together) for a seventh chord just play the tritone (F and B). Those are the main notes anyway and no one will miss the other stuff: a bass player will handle the lows, the singer will have cool melody tones. ... It really worked: The Freddie Green theory of comping! |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Great discussion here. Thanks for taking the lead, Dobro. |
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Location: Chicago | Crimson: I don't really know about the Sheets of Sound guy's books. If you follow the lesson, he's just harmonizing scales in fourths and then finding cool inversions. That was really the big change in the jazz sound around 1964 when McCoy Tyner went into the whole "quartal" (chords-built-in-fourths) dimension that you hear in this clip. And, you'll notice, this is why "jazz guitar" often sounds more corny in the chord department than what keyboard players do. Hence Sheets of Sound Zucker is showing what progressive players do to remedy the situation.
WARNING: You can take all this shit too far. When your brain begins to hurt from stacking fourths and inverting them, check out this PARODY OF THE WHOLE "ULTRA-MODERN CHORD" crap This Aussie has a wicked sense of humor that most of the dumbasses who stumble on his postings don't even understand:)
POINTER #98: When making music with "inside" (movable) chords it is essential to have good VOICE leading as you move from one form to the next: the upper and lower notes should not skip wildly, but (ideally) move only a whole or half step at a clip. Explained on this page. Herbie Hancock tells the story of what a voice-leading nazi Miles was even in the freer days of the 60s quintet! |
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Location: Sydney, Australia | My brain hurts! |
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Location: Chicago | Back to basics. Here's a favorite "Freddie Green" trick maybe you know.
BLUES IN G (G7 C7 and D7)
Have a buddy play the roots of the chords (or sing them): G C G G C C G G D D G G
Now, YOU play the F note (4th string, 3rd fret) and B note (3rd string, 4rth fret). That's G7
When your buddy moves to the D bass note, slide your two notes DOWN one fret (E note, Bb note): That's your C7.
For the last chord (D7) slide the first thing you did UP a fret (F# note C note)
VOILA: two note "inside" or movable chords! |
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Location: Chicago | Line 5 above should read:
When your buddy moves to the C BASS NOTE , slide your two notes DOWN one fret (E note, Bb note): That's your C7. |
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Location: Waterloo, IL | Wow, I ask what I thought was a fairly simple question, and my brain gets overloaded! Now if I can just get it squished down to a simple form that my brain can handle, I might even be able to play inside chords! :p |
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Location: Chicago | Well, just start with the 'field of forms' link in my first post. You'll be sure to find some nice sounds you can use. It IS intimidating because music is infinite. The guitar is just a groovy "matrix" or "slide-rule" to gain access. You're supposed to get lost! |
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Location: Cicero, NY | Yep. Knew where this was going... |
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Location: GA USA | Forget Sheets of Sound. Where do we buy the Dobro book? |
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Location: Chicago | Hey, music is infinite: there is something here for everybody. Having only barre chords can be very limiting (and tiring for the hands!) It is good to have options! |
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Location: Marlton, NJ | Originally posted by Captain_Lovehandles:
Forget Sheets of Sound. Where do we buy the Dobro book? I think I might just move to Chicago - no way to get all of that knowledge and experience out of a book! |
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| Great discussion and information. I've been experimenting with/learning about this very subject in my current lessons. Once you get the hang of it it's very powerful. |
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Location: Chicago | Chuck: here's another trick (I hear it in James Taylor's comping ... and my friend Jeff Burns is a master of this one):
Take familiar chords and ADD color tones, especially open strings.
[The chord code here, by the way, is just strings + frets low > high: So G major would be 320003 ]
Sweet Eminor (add 9th): 024000
Exotic D major (sus 9): x04030
Sweet D minor 9th: x00560
Exotic B major (4th): 799800
Flamenco F# open barre: 244300
(go from this to G & back)
It's like Darwin said: "Endless forms most beautiful!" |
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Location: Reisterstown, Maryland | Originally posted by TAFKAR:
My brain hurts! I think mine died.
But man, this is interesting :cool: |
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Location: Chicago | Get out your guitar, and just try the chords in the last post. I promise you'll like 'em.
Sweet Eminor (add 9th): 024000
Exotic D major (sus 9): x04030
Sweet D minor 9th: x00560
Exotic B major (4th): 799800
Flamenco F# open barre: 244300
(go from this to G & back) |
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Inside Chords
