|
|
Joined:
March 2009
Posts: 715
| I'm writing this out of frustration.
As some of you know, I started practicing "Rhymes and Reasons" last week in anticipation of being able to do this song in a couple of weeks at an open mike night.
The chord changes are relatively simple G to D, then to CaddG, then to Em to Bm and then C and back to G (I don't have the book in front of me, so I'm typing this from memory). I'm working out of the John Denver Easy Guitar book.
Should be simple for someone who has been taking lessons for over 2 years, right? Well, I am tripping up on this song and it is frustrating. I'm also trying to sing and play this song, something that I haven't done much of.
One of the problems my teacher and I detected last night is the chord changes from G to D. I think it is because I'm still getting used to the Ovation neck and may be overcompensating because my "finger memory" is still "programmed" for the Walden.
And sometimes I can't seem to be able to make chord changes and sing at the same time. I literally seem to stop singing to make the chord changes.
One thing that happened last year is that I took a guitar course at the local community college. The teacher said to me that if I hadn't learned to sing and play right from the start of lessons that it would be very difficult to be able to so now. I guess that tape is playing at the back of my mind.
I was talking to someone last night about this problem and he suggested that if I was having such difficulty with "Rhymes and Reasons" that I forget about doing that song and try something else. He suggested trying "A Horse with No Name" by America, as he said that it is a relatively simple song to learn.
I understand what he was saying, but I really don't like "A Horse with No Name". In fact, I don't really like most of the songs I've heard by the group America. I can't imagine myself learning something I don't like to listen to right now. Besides, I've quit doing lots of things in life, and I'm tired of quitting something just because it isn't coming easy to me.
My teacher says that I am doing "Rhymes and Reasons" at least 2 to 3 times better than when I first tried it several months ago. That gives me some comfort, but I'd like to really be able to nail this song, and it seems to be eluding me!
I am truly loving the Collectors, and am getting better at chord changes because of the neck. But what can I do to really nail this song? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I almost forgot to mention that I use the "cheater" version of the Bm chord
Sorry for the ramble. Sometimes I feel like a real piece of work.
Michelle |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Michelle, I'm sure you will get lots of ideas here on how to accomplish your goal. Here's mine, and you may or may not have heard this before.
When I started playing guitar... ok, when I started learning the guitar, there was quite a period when I played with the guitar, rather than playing the guitar...
I learned chords. I learn them so well that my hands were making the shapes in my sleep. When I had learned them I started playing random progressions of the chords I knew, not to make musical sense, but to teach my hands to move from one position to the next without me having to consciously analyze them. I practiced getting the chords 'clean' while doing it, then I progressively did it faster and faster. Sounded insane, but I now can read a chord sheet and only have to see the written chord and my hands know where to go. And I can concentrate on the words instead of the chords. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2009
Posts: 715
| Originally posted by The Wabbit Formerly Known As Waskel:
Michelle, I'm sure you will get lots of ideas here on how to accomplish your goal. Here's mine, and you may or may not have heard this before.
When I started playing guitar... ok, when I started learning the guitar, there was quite a period when I played with the guitar, rather than playing the guitar...
I learned chords. I learn them so well that my hands were making the shapes in my sleep. When I had learned them I started playing random progressions of the chords I knew, not to make musical sense, but to teach my hands to move from one position to the next without me having to consciously analyze them. I practiced getting the chords 'clean' while doing it, then I progressively did it faster and faster. Sounded insane, but I now can read a chord sheet and only have to see the written chord and my hands know where to go. And I can concentrate on the words instead of the chords. Thanks Wabbit!
The thing is that I know that I know these chords. I know them like I know the back of my hand. But why am I getting so tripped up on the progression? I forgot to mention that there is an Am thrown in the middle, right after a D chord.
Part of the problem might be is that when I strum, I think my pick pattern is boring (I sometimes think this between the chord changes). I am truly my own worst critic, I think.
Michelle |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15677
Location: SoCal | Originally posted by Guitarzannie:
One thing that happened last year is that I took a guitar course at the local community college. The teacher said to me that if I hadn't learned to sing and play right from the start of lessons that it would be very difficult to be able to so now. I guess that tape is playing at the back of my mind.
Michelle Michelle, the teacher that told you that is an ass, and it's not true. You've got to get that out of your head.
I've worked on stuff that when I start, it just seems impossible. I stay with it and amazingly, suddenly, it clicks. You don't always know when it's going to happen, but it almost always happens.
It will "click" for you as well. Just stay with it. Don't try for full speed on it, just play and sing it slowly and in good time. You'll get faster with it before you know it. But don't get frustrated by it. Everybody on this board has gone thru what you are right now. Hang in there... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 5881
Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Practice, practice, practice. Ultimately, your fingers will configure the chords by rote and your mind will concentrate on expression and delivery of the words. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 4070
Location: Utah | I'll rely on the wisdom of the Beatles. There's nothing that has been done that can't be done.
You can do this but it may just take time. Being frustrated is part of the learning process. If you already knew it, it wouldn't be difficult or frustrating.
If there is one particularly difficult spot, go back to the chord or line before it and work your way through it slowly. When you have it at that speed, start going a bit faster.
Try not to practice mistakes, and try to practice from just before until just after the difficult part, so you have the transition or context of the part you trying to fix. If you only practice the difficult spot in isolation, it won't flow as easily when you do it in the whole song. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2008
Posts: 2683
Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | Great advice from everybody. The only thing I can add is that although you don't like songs by America (and I don't blame you), sometimes you can really dislike a song when you listen to it, but if you learn to play it, it might be so much fun that you start liking it. So my advice is to never discount a song 'til you've tried playing it. That will also get you used to the idea of playing requests that you're not crazy about. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7236
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Might I offer a slightly different approach.
How often have you listened to the tune? How often have you played along with the tune?
I would get a copy of the tune onto mp3 and play it over and over, sing along with it, listen to it. Then, play along with it, over and over. Don't concentrate on "getting your fingers to go in the right place" concentrate on listening to what you are playing. Don't try to get it right... don't stop it and restart. Just keep playing along with it, and singing along with it.
The nice thing about acoustic tunes is you can play the tune on your mp3 into your headphones, but sing and play out loud.
Eventually, you won't need the mp3 player, but insure you LISTEN to the FULL tune many times WITHOUT playing along first.
If you get to where you are comfortable with the tune, the quickness of switching chords is less of an issue, the need to strum a particular way is less of an issue.
If you are "waiting" to sing a note cause your hand isn't on the chord yet.. then you are not up to speed yet, that's all. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
September 2006
Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Michelle sez: The teacher said to me that if I hadn't learned to sing and play right from the start of lessons that it would be very difficult to be able to so now.
I find that encouraging, cuz I cannot sing. And I definitely cannot sing and play at the same time.
Now I have a Reason (excuse) :p |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2006
Posts: 3969
| Originally posted by Guitarzannie:
The teacher said to me that if I hadn't learned to sing and play right from the start of lessons that it would be very difficult to be able to so now. What an ass! Totally wrong, don't give it another thought!
My teacher says that I am doing "Rhymes and Reasons" at least 2 to 3 times better than when I first tried it several months ago. Then you have nothing to worry about. It just sounds like you need to develop the muscle memory. Are you trying to play it at full speed? Maybe slow it down a bit. One technique my instructor insists on is that I learn a new piece/progression/arpeggio at a slow speed - say 50 bpm - until I can play it without mistakes. Then gradually speed up day by day until I'm playing it at full speed without mistakes. That last is key, since you don't want to program something incorrectly into your brain.
Also try just the guitar part until you have it solid, then gradually add the voice. You may have to slow it down again to get the right phrasing, but it'll come much more quickly. I find that especially important if I'm learning a song that has a lot of arpeggios or other complicated fingering that harmonizes or syncopates on the melody.
Don't give up, and if you feel frustrated just set it aside for a bit and play something you're comfortable and familiar with to restore confidence. Then when you go back you'll find the difficult piece is easier. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12759
Location: Boise, Idaho | I can't imagine going to a boring song you don't like just so that you could learn "a song." Playing and singing takes some time. Sometimes I find that singing helps me stay on track with the playing, but more often if I focus on the playing I forget what verse I'm on and if I focus on the lyrics, I forget the music. This is true of songs like "Scarborough Fair" that I've known for 35 years. It's also true of songs I'm still working on. It just takes a lot of practice. Most of what I do is a bit more difficult to play, but last night I was playing some Eagles songs that I wrote down 30 years ago and even though there were 3 or 4 chords, I'd keep forgetting that the second verse ended with a different chord than the 3rd verse or play the wrong chord even when the right one was written right in front of me.
I'm not trying to make you feel better by making me look stupid. I come by the stupid part naturally. I'm just trying to say that it takes a ton of practice to put the playing and singing together, even when you can do each separately without a problem. Giving up and going to a simple song you don't like won't teach you anything. Getting past the frustration will. If you can play or sing, you're ahead of most. If you can do both, you're way ahead. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
September 2006
Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | "...but I really don't like "A Horse with No Name".
I understand that!
Try "For What It's Worth" by Buffalo Springfield...
Same chords, better song. :cool: |
|
| |
|
Joined:
September 2003
Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan | Great suggestions so far.
Here's my 2 cents.
1) Give yourself temproary permission to be less than perfect.... much less than perfect.
It's natural to be worse before you get better.
Besides, what's the fun and where's the reward in doing something perfect first time, everytime?
2) "There's lower hanging fruit"
It's an often used phrase between my dou partner and myself.
That doesn't mean give up, it just means to set it aside and come back to it another time. Kinda like taking a taste out of the stew pot and realizing it needs to cook a little longer.
We'll take a run at a new song and know pretty fast if it's going to work. Some are just not meant to be done by 2 guys with 2 guitars. Others are beyond our current skill level. We have put many songs back in the "pot" only to pull them out a year later and make them work.
So... Don't let yourself get hung up on one song. Some that seem simple are much harder to pull off than you'd think. Move onto something else to build up your chops and confidence. Then, come back after it's stewed in the "pot" for awhile. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
September 2003
Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan | I miss-spelled "duo" and it's drivng me nuts. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2008
Posts: 160
Location: Montana | Hi Michelle, could the problem be the easy arrangement? Have you compared it to a more accurate version?
I also tend toward the easy arrangements but sometimes I find that there is a song that just doesn't work that way, I can't get the rhythm or make the vocals get in sync with the guitar etc. And so I'm forced to go to a more accurate and difficult arrangement and I find that there was something missing in the easy version that doesn't match my musical memory of the song. Perhaps it's a chord change that was removed to simplify it, a beat that is skipped etc. And that something removed is what "sets up" the next chord change or lyric verse etc. in my memory. And sometimes what was removed isn't really that hard, so I put it in to the easy version and it works.
Scott |
|
| |
|
Joined:
September 2003
Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan | Over simplified arrangements.... good point! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2002
Posts: 8307
Location: Tennessee | Originally posted by Slipkid:
I miss-spelled "duo" and it's drivng me nuts. Whew! I wasn't too sure about the way that whole thing was starting to sound there.
Michelle ... sounds like you're having trouble rubbing your tummy and patting your head at the same time (if I may make an analogy). With Rhymes and Reasons, you might want to focus on it being a vocal tune, and just taking a single strum of the guitar at the beginning of each measure and letting it resonate. I think R&R would work very well that way, especially with a pretty voice. That'll give you plenty of time to make the change and it will feel natural. In other words, accompany yourself on the guitar instead of trying so hard on both sides. Pat your head once for every circle you make on your tummy. ;) You'll be ready for the open mike and then down the road you can work on making it more complex if you want.
And you should take Miles' advice to heart.
Good luck and knock 'em dead. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2008
Posts: 247
Location: Delaware | I usually listen to the song enough to become very familiar with it. Then I work on the chords and strumming pattern while thinking of the lyrycs in my head, or quietly humming them to help keep the rythym/pattern of the song, not really trying to play and sing at first, just play. Once I feel somewhat comfortable with the strumming pattern and melody, I'll start to concentrate on learning (and remembering) the words and the breathing pattern while playing the melody already learned. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
September 2003
Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan | I like the one strum per measure technique and use it from time to time.
quote:
-----------------------------------------
Originally posted by Slipkid:
I miss-spelled "duo" and it's drivng me nuts.
-------------------------------------------------
Whew! I wasn't too sure about the way that whole thing was starting to sound there.
Tell me about it.
Now-a-days if you use the word "partner" in a sentence you better be clear on the context. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2004
Posts: 2850
Location: Midland, MI | Originally posted by Fridave:
I usually listen to the song enough to become very familiar with it. Then I work on the chords and strumming pattern while thinking of the lyrycs in my head,... That has always been my approach, as well. But, I cannot play a single song all the way through. Truth. I have an attention span probl...
I like the suggestion to put it aside and come back in a day or two. That's also always been my approach. Inevitably, though, I find another song that I want to learn and start tryi...
Good luck, Michelle! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2006
Posts: 4232
Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | Hiya Michelle,
I can't add much to what's already been suggested except for one nugget of personal experience from someone who learned without an instructor and even had the easy chords JD Greatest Hits book back then. I've always sung and played, but when I was first learning, I had to know the lyrics cold to pull it off. Why? Because I couldn't keep up with even the simple music when I was trying to read the chords and lyrics simultaneously while thinking about progression and tempo and everything else. I listened and played with the record (You read it right.) until I didn't have to think about the lyrics at all. Then I could read the chords and sing without losing my place or over-thinking the sheet music.
Good luck and keep me posted. :D :cool: |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 4070
Location: Utah | Something else to add is that sometimes your brain and fingers just don't like to work the same way as the original artist. I find that on many songs I just can't do it exactly like the recorded version, but with a few minor changes I can do it fine. Mine can be just as technically difficult, but for me it is easier.
If you listen to an artist's work, you'll hear a certain style that is theirs. Well, your style is different and is yours. Sometimes you won't be able to play someone else's song exactly as they did. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 5331
Location: Cicero, NY | "I have an attention span probl..."
Good to have you back, Crusty. Been way too long.
Michelle, keep in mind that you can put your own mojo on the tunes too and, if it doesn't sound exactly like Jim and Maury, that's fine too. I love going out and hearing Open Mikes and solo artists to see what kind of spin they're going to put on different tunes. Sometimes it's good and sometimes it needs a different spin but don't think that, if it's not exactly Jim, it's not good. Take a step back, take a breath and then have fun with the song. It'll come... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2009
Posts: 715
| Originally posted by CanterburyStrings:
Great advice from everybody. The only thing I can add is that although you don't like songs by America (and I don't blame you), sometimes you can really dislike a song when you listen to it, but if you learn to play it, it might be so much fun that you start liking it. So my advice is to never discount a song 'til you've tried playing it. That will also get you used to the idea of playing requests that you're not crazy about. I'll definitely take that into consideration. The only thing is that it reminds me of last year in class when the rest of the class wanted to learn "Wish You Were Here". I got teased (good naturedly though) about not actually having heard the song because I don't listen to groups like Pink Floyd.
I really resented this choice of song and really didn't learn the song very well. But after hearing someone play it at a club, I kind of like the song, only I don't know if I would want to spend time learning it again. Weird, I know.
Michelle |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 5331
Location: Cicero, NY | Michelle, half the beauty of that song, as is true with a LOT of songs, is the story behind it. Not saying that that particular song is everyone's cup of tea but much like Layla, Hey Jude or any number of classic tunes, the muse can add volumes. |
|
| |
Roadblock Ramble
