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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | I am having a problem with my Adamas 1688 12 string that I have never come across before and would appreciate any advise from the technicians on the board that may be able to help...
When I received the guitar I noticed that the high G string wouldn't stay in tune and assumed it was just a bad or worn string. After I changed the strings, the problem persists...
I have looked at all the obvious things... machine head, string sticking in the nut, sloppy winding etc., but this doesn't seem to be the problem.
When I tune the high G string to the lower (thicker) G string of the pair and play it open, the tuning is perfect. As soon as I start freting down the neck, the higher G string gets progressively flatter the higher I go (in relation to the lower thicker G string of the pair). If the string was going sharp, I would think it might be an intonation problem relating to the frets (ie. pulling the string down to the fret would cause it to go sharp), but going flat doesn't seem to make any sense? Also, when I slightly detune the higher G string (so that it is minutely flat when played open...), the pair will sound in tune all the way up the neck.
This has got me completely puzzled. I'm sure someone here must have seen this before?
To play any 12 string guitar out of tune is annoying... but to play an Adamas out of tune is criminal.
HELP!! |
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Posts: 4996
Location: Phoenix AZ | Try some nut sauce. |
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Posts: 370
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | I should have added... The bridge saddle for the G string pair is tipped ever so slightly toward the bass strings. Not sure if this could make any difference or if it wasn't always like this.
When it comes to bridge adjustments on acoustics... I know absolutely zip (but have even less confidence in the local techs to correct it...).
Thanks |
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Posts: 4232
Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | Swap the bridges between your Adamas and your 12-string Legend. Then see if the intonation changes on either/both guitars. |
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Posts: 370
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | Hi Dave,
Tried graphite in the nut and although it seemed to make the 'out-of-tuneness' more consistent, I still have to detune the higher G string to have the pair play in tune up the neck.
Bridge adjustment? How do you go about sharpening the intonation on an acoustic bridge saddle you can't move forward (to shorten the string length)?
Have never adjusted an acoustic bridge before, but do most of the basic setups on my electrics and basses. The theory is probably the same, right?
Thanks |
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Posts: 370
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | Hi Patch,
Interesting idea!!
How hard is it to get the saddle off. What is actually holding it in place? A post attached to the bottom? Friction?
If I did take this to a tech to correct, he wouldn't be fixing the bridge saddle that is there by adjusting it somehow? He would just replace it? |
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Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | This thread tells you how to remove the pick up assembly. Nothing to it really, just be a little bit careful and it usually comes right out. Swapping saddles will tell you whether or not that's exactly where the problem is. If it is indeed the case, it's probably easier to just buy another one. Call your local O dealer or just look online.
Of course, if you swap saddles and find no difference, that's a whole other matter. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Sometimes the groove in the nut is not even or too deep which could cause intonation issues. |
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | Stephen... DEAD ON THE MARK!! Thanks!!
I tried slipping a piece of newprint under the string and while it didn't correct the problem, it was somewhat more in tune, making me think this was the right track. So I tried folding the piece of newsprint over on itself (to make it thicker...) and it corrected the problem.
So if the problem is indeed, a slot in the saddle that is too deep, how do I change the saddle. Are these Ovation/Adamas specific (ie. needing to be ordered from MS), or will a reasonably well stocked guitar tech have them on hand... Don't want the guitar tied up for too long.
Also the set of strings that are on there are Martin ultra-lites (mentioned in another thread...) and the high G is a .008 (which seems insanely light to me). Is it possible putting on a set of ? Lites with a .010 (for the high G) might fix this? Is it possible this was caused by a previous owner using a wound high G? |
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Location: out there | If a 12 string is perfectly in tune it doesn't sound like a 12 string, does it? |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | I usually run 10's or sometimes 11's.
I think 8's would be way too light for an acoustic 12. |
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Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | Originally posted by stephent28:
I usually run 10's or sometimes 11's.
I think 8's would be way too light for an acoustic 12. Ditto. |
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| Definitely nothing lighter than 10's. The nut is cut for 10's so that's probably where intonation problems come in when using narrower strings. |
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | Must have misunderstood...
On the Martin set I have on there now (MARTIN Ultra-Lite M180's), the gauges are .010 to .047. The .008 I mentioned is the high G (of the G pair with the other being a .020). It struck me as a bit odd as well that the lighter of the G strings would be two gauges down from an already light set. These actually sound fine (a bit thinner on the bass end...), if the G would stay in tune. :D
The general concensus was (from the other thread on string gauges...) that the best choice of strings for an Adamas 12 string should be .012 to .054 (possibly an .053 if that is the company's low end choice... as in some Elixir sets). With the most popular brands being Elixir, Adamas and D'Addario's (which are what Adamas' were shipped with in the most recent release). |
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | Just comparing 12 string sets from different makers and using a .008 (for a high G...) seems to be a Martin-only thing.
Most of the others, including Elixir and DR only go to .009 on their lightest sets.
Probably just a bad combination of a too deep saddle groove and a ridiculously light string. |
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Posts: 13303
Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Originally posted by Avatar4550:
The general concensus was (from the other thread on string gauges...) that the best choice of strings for an Adamas 12 string should be .012 to .054 Maybe for a 6-string but I can't believe the consensus for a 12-string was to use 12's. The factory ships out the 12 stringers with 10's.
They even shipped my longneck 12 with 10s which surprised me cause I assumed they would put 11s or 12s on it. |
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Location: closely held secret | I use a 10 for my high G. I've always used the same gauge for the high G and the E's. |
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Location: SoCal | Elixir 12 string "lights" are .010-.047 with a .009 on the high G string.
Like with an electric guitar, "light" has a different meaning with talking 6 string and 12 string. On a 6, it's .012-.053.... |
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | Stephen...
You are correct about the brands and gauges mentioned. This was mistakenly lifted from the 6 string preferences thread.
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Elixirs 80/20 12 string sets are...
Lights .010 - .047 (high G being a .009)
Medium .012 - .053 (high G being a .010)
Heavy .013 - .056 (high G being a .014)
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Adamas 1616 set is
Extra Light .010 - .047 (high G being a .10)
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DR RPL10/12 set is
Not classified by gauge but looks to be comparable to a light .010 - .048 (high G being a .009)
So definitely lots of variance from one to another... |
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | I spoke with a friend of mine about acoustic string preferences (he's tried practically everything, as it seems have most of you...) and he was of the opinion that "... once you try Elixirs, you will never use anything else...".
This is pretty much what I tell people about Adamas', so am hoping that the two combined (Elixirs on an Adamas...) will be the magic combo. :D |
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Location: SoCal | Then the question becomes, which Elixirs? The phospher bronze or the original 80/20's? I use the phos/bronze mediums on the Legend deep bowls and the Adamas deep bowl, but the 80/20 mediums on the 87C and 1537. |
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| Don't like Elixirs, sound dead to me out of the box. I'm on a Cleartone EMP kick right now, the only coated strings that last long enough with my body chemistry to justify their cost, and they sound epic on my Adamii. YMMV. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Are elixers spec'd with or without the coating. I mean is an elixer 10 the same as a normal 10? |
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Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | Originally posted by Avatar4550:
I spoke with a friend of mine about acoustic string preferences (he's tried practically everything, as it seems have most of you...) and he was of the opinion that "... once you try Elixirs, you will never use anything else...".
This is pretty much what I tell people about Adamas', so am hoping that the two combined (Elixirs on an Adamas...) will be the magic combo. :D Heh, heh!
I used Elixirs exclusively for over ten years. then I caught GAS.
It didn't take long to discover that different guitars, even different O's, apparently have their own string preferences. Nothing but Elixirs seems to work on my 2001 Collector's, same for the redwood 1537, (Maybe it's the redwood tops. I dunno.) so I didn't dump them entirely. But I now have a mix of D'Addario and Elixirs of various gauges and chemistry all of which were matched via trial and error. My 12-string Custom Balladeer even has Martin Silk-n-Steels on it. Whenever I get a new guitar, half the fun is figuring out which strings really suit it.
FWIW, the one that's given me the toughest fight is the D-42. I've got my fifth set on that critter, and it still ain't quite there yet.
GAS can indeed be a slippery slope, but thou shouldst only warily dip thy big, hairy toe into the vagaries of "stringology". :p |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by Avatar4550:
I spoke with a friend of mine about acoustic string preferences (he's tried practically everything, as it seems have most of you...) and he was of the opinion that "... once you try Elixirs, you will never use anything else...". What he probably meant was "Once HE tried elixers, HE will never use anything else." On the other hand there are some people who think elixers suck dead donkey dick. To each their own. |
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12 String Tuning/Intonation Problem?
