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Posts: 425
Location: SE Michigan | Slipkid (Brad) and I will be playing a long set this week at a local club. There is decent a PA, and probably some rudimentary monitors. We have played there before and basically the host sets up the PA and then you are on your own. The problem is that it’s anyone’s guess if one of us will be too loud vocally or with the guitar. It is pretty hard to tell what is going on from the stage. When Brad and I practice we usually do it unplugged, we have become pretty good at adjusting to each other and the natural sound. I confess that I am not very good at adjusting my guitar’s preamp in mid-song.
I had this idea and wanted to see what you guys think: My idea is to set up four mic’s, one each for vocals and one each mounted lower for our guitars. This gives us the advantage of being able to self-modulate both vocally and on our guitars. In theory wouldn’t the mic’s pick up what is happening naturally when we play unplugged? If we did this we would be using regular dynamic SM-58’s, not condenser mic’s or anything fancy. It is a typical bar environment. I would probably use my deep bowl Adamas 1581 and Brad would likely use his Al Di Meola Custom Legend, also a deep bowl, possibly his UTE Adamas. Another reason for my wanting to try this is that I play with a pretty percussive style that seems to come out better when I play unplugged, my style can at times make my plugged in sound rather quacky due to the piezo effect.
Anyone tried a set up like this before? Thoughts?
Any other suggestions for controlling or setting up the mix without a reliable sound man at the board? |
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Posts: 4536
Location: Flahdaw | Don't plan on moving around much on stage....a foot in either direction completely changes the sound you are putting out. I sure couldn't do it. |
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Posts: 3969
| This is one for Temp. Without a proper mix to the monitors so you can hear yourselves, it'll be hard to tell what the house mix will sound like while you're playing. Not a good situation. No way you can go early and do a sound check? |
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Location: Flahdaw | Bring a friend with you. After one song (maybe two) sitting in the audience, they should be able to tweak your sound good enough to get by. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Go wireless and walk out into the middle of the room to check you mix. |
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Location: south east Michigan | We ain't got no friends.
After yesterdays rare attempt at a plugged in practice I realize (again), how much more there is to figure out and be concerned about. |
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Joined:
April 2004
Posts: 13303
Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Originally posted by Slipkid:
We ain't got no friends.
Then go wireless |
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Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan | Hmmm.. that's the second time I heard that today.
That'd be great if we were bringing in and working off of our own PA but we have to work with the equipment that's there. |
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Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Brad, wireless doesn't depend on the PA. The transmitter plugs into your guitar and the receiver plugs into a channel on the PA, just as your guitar would if you were plugged in. A better situation is to have the receiver near you and run to the PA with (most likely) an XLR (mic) cable. But be warned - a cheap wireless unit will sound... well, cheap.
Here are some. VHF is ok if you keep it close to you and away from AC lines. UHF is better.
This would allow you to walk out into the room while playing to check the guitar mix.
Though it is hard to check your vocals when you're out in the room... |
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Location: Flahdaw | The problem is that Brad and Brian would have to go wireless for guitar AND vocals in order to walk out into the room, play gits, and sing. They would have to perform a number together out there to make sure the gits and vocals all sounded right to the audience, then walk back and forth from out there to the PA, tweak it, come back play some more, and so on. A logistical nightmare.
Can you buy a friend?
oops, just read Waskal's complete post (which I normally never do) and saw that he kind of covered this.... |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | db.....go buy a T-Shirt |
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Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | If you are going to use mics on your guitars and you don't have a stellar sound system, killer mikes and a very competent sound engineer, then you are potentially going to get yourselves into a world of hurt. 58's just don't have the sensitivity, frequency response and output to do justice to acoustic instruments, and monitors, unless they are at least as good as the FOH speakers and with good defensive EQ, will halve your feedback threshold. Nice idea, but tricky to pull off. |
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Posts: 4536
Location: Flahdaw | Originally posted by stephent28:
db.....go buy a T-Shirt If I go wasting time shopping for shirts, who'd be here to give logical, intelligent advice? Weaser? |
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Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan | I WILL NOT... wear one of those Garth Brooks mics.... EVER!!
Until we do real gigs and have our own PA, we'll just have to do the best we can with what we have to work with.
I'd be nice to have someone tweeking knobs that knows how to tweek, but the bottom line is... it's just a couple of middle aged (sorry Brian) open mic dudes.
But I think Brian has a good idea. I think we (especially Brian) would sound much better, or at least more natural, with a miced guitar. |
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Location: closely held secret | Good luck with the gig, B&B. Mic'ing guitars in a bar setting might be more fun than you bargained for,
Originally posted by dark bar:
oops, just read Waskel's complete post (which I normally never do) I'll try to use smaller words with fewer syllables in the future. Just for you. |
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Posts: 5332
Location: Bluffton, SC | Originally posted by dark bar:
If I go wasting time shopping for shirts, who'd be here to give logical, intelligent advice? Weaser? Why that's just about the nicest thing he's ever said about me.
It could be the nicest thing ANYone has ever said about me.
He WAS talking about me, right...? |
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Location: closely held secret | sahr-kaz-uhm |
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Location: Bluffton, SC | Just love bursting bubbles, don'cha? |
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Posts: 15682
Location: SoCal | Your best bet is to bring a friend who can control volume and just try to set everything on the board flat and adjust on your guitars. Maybe just boost bass a little and leave everything else flat as well. The goal here is not to sound great, but just to sound decent (or maybe a bit better). Go into it knowing that the "sound" of the p.a. is going to be ok but not great, and instead, work on the sound of the music (which you can practice). |
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October 2005
Posts: 5332
Location: Bluffton, SC | Hate to agree with the Big Guy in public but someone out front - almost ANYone with ears - is going to help a little. The rest don't bother with. If their PA is THAT weak, they probably aren't going to have a lot of discerning ears in the the audence anyway. Go put on a good show (like a bunch of us here have seen you guys do) and have fun.
They'll be screaming to have you back. |
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Posts: 1227
Location: Connersville, Indiana | in places like this, when there is not a reliable sound person on the PA, I have a SHS portable floor monitor with 5 inputs. It angles up and you connect your mic's and guitars into the inputs then connect the monitor into the PA's plug. It accepts Low and High impedance jacks. So If you wanted to you could plug all 4 mic's in and make adjustments on stage. It's almost like having a mini head to a PA system. It cost $350 at the time a few years back, and I know you don't have much time but you may want to look for something like this in the future. I believe Fender and Crate make similar products. You would just have to look at all the newest products available. Or the Acoustonic Amp has imputes for mic's and an output you could go to the PA with. and use the amp as a monitor. Just a thought |
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Posts: 5881
Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Why chance it? Pick up a good acoustic amp and use it as a stage amp/monitor, then send a feed to the house PA. This way, you control the tone and the sound engineer handles the blend and volume. A Genz Acoustic Pro has three XLR outputs, one for each channel and a third that combines the two channels. I'd bet most better acoustic amps have multiple balanced outputs. If you and Brad both used these types of amps, you could send four balanced signals to the house, two each for your guitar and mic. For smaller clubs hosting two balladeers on stools, you might not even need the house PA. |
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Posts: 4536
Location: Flahdaw | Yep, that would be a great way to do it. Most PA's may have reverb, but a decent acoustic amp will have chorus and delay options too. Tweak your sound at the amp and send it to the dry PA.
I played once where there was no monitor, just PA speakers at either side, facing the audience. It was ridiculous trying to hear yourself. |
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October 2005
Posts: 4081
Location: Utah | Prof's suggestion is a good one.
For the quacky guitar that you want to mic, there are small instrument mounted mics which you could use. This doesn't address the whole house PA issue but it does get you back to plugged in guitars. |
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Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Hey, if you follow BB's advice, at the very least you'll sound good to you, giving you the perception that you sound good to the house.
Instant confidence builder.
"What's the chicken wire for?" |
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Playing though a PA with mic'd guitars
