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Location: New Hartford CT | Many moons ago I was trained to carve and raw sand necks at Ovation. Ultimately I carved about 70 thousand of them, leaving the tedious task of raw sanding to others. Carving was the glory job and a fairly sharp 'V' profile was the desired shape. I recall one engineer who would enter a Zen-like state when describing Ovation's critical neck profile philosophy. At times a neck would feel too sharp, too extreme in its V profile and I'd double check; he would answer with a big grin of approval!
We used 3 aluminum gauges to check the profile in 3 spots, a 100% shape inspection on every single neck (6 & 12 string). Sometimes it was difficult. You're dealing with a roughed out neck shape off a converted Richardson gun stock machine, varying grain patterns, wood density, knots, etc. A steady hand was required when roughing out the shape with a right angle disc sander and 3" 60 grit sanding disc spinning up to 20K rpm. Since the fingerboard and any bindings were already attached, wiping out an edge (or left thumb) was a constant danger. Once the shape was carved, you switch over to a 120 grit disc to smooth the FB edges and blend the headstock to the neck body. Then you switch to a 1" dia. barrel sander for more blending in the same area. Next up, an 80 grit right angle belt sander is used all along the neck body and heel, then on to a vertical brush sander 120 grit going with the grain. At this point the carving and shaping was complete and the neck would go to raw sanding which is an art form in itself. Back then it was critical that there were no sharp edges that could 'cut through' the finish when they were flat sanded post 8 coats of laquer. Finally there was a wet sanding and final spray process which I don't know a lot about. There must be somone on the forum who is more familiar than I of how the 8 coats of material were sprayed on and ultimately finished up.
There was so much hand work involved in those days that carpal tunnel syndrome became an issue. Finally a huge CMM machine came online and eliminated the need for hand carving. Every neck would be identical, the ideal profile. Someone got the idea to eliminate all those coats of laquer and raw/wet sanding, a huge savings in time. A simple spray gloss or hand rub stain finish eliminates any possibility of a cut through as well , no more reworks. However, to me the hand carved, glossy necks with all that hand work from years past just feel better. While not as uniform, they had a certain character and feel that a machine can never replicate.
I'm not certain what the philosophy is these days or if there is even time to worry about it. It's a dog eat dog world where you're competing against some foreign shop who have their machinery set up under tarps outside and no OSHA or Feds shutting them down for not being environmentally compliant. I'm also not certain what the ideal neck profile is but tend to think it's a personal choice. But I miss that guy grinning about a sharp 'V' profile and all the human effort that went into producing necks. I hope they're still making a few the old fashioned way and even though I already have 2 jobs wouldn't mind doing a little moonlighting to carve a few special necks. |
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Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | Thats a great story Geo, and it coveys a sense of connection between you, the artisan/builder and us, the players/end-users.
I work wood myself, and I know the satisfaction you get from carving and shaping the necks by hand....no machine could ever put the love and care into the wood that you did.
I own several Ovations from '78-'97 and I'm sure you've carved the necks on at least one or two of them....Thank you for your skill and thank you for sharing your story.... |
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Location: Texas | Good gosh...a great post. Thanks for sharing that. Geo, do you have any idea about what year Ovation went to the CMM? |
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Location: N.E. Pa | Love this... Makes me hope you had your hands on my '74 Balladeer and '75 Glen Campbell! |
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Location: New Hartford CT | jay - CMM started churning out necks in late 93 and was phased in completely by 94, as I recollect. As far as I know it has done an incredible job and they perfected it. Where things stand today or whether they even have it there anymore I'm not sure. Things have changed I hear...
fran - I didn't carve your neck but the people who trained me handed down their knowledge and we used the identical procedures and equipment. It was a great time in manufacturing and there was a pretty neat group working there. I bet your 74 and 75 are fantastic guitars with a lot of character. |
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Location: N.E. Pa | Still very cool... Being there would be a dream job for me! |
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Location: Texas | Geo, thank you for sharing.
Your post not only speaks volumes of the dedication and pride that went into each Ovation guitar, but it also is representative of a lost piece of Americana that will be extremely difficult to recapture and will never be reproduced.
Makes me just a little prouder to be an Ovation fanatic (freak, in todays lingo).
Thanks again. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Now there's a cyborg standing by with a metallic grin everytime the CMM spits out a computer generated "perfect" neck. |
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Location: Tennessee | I've never seen FrankU with a grin on his face. |
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Location: Texas | Interesting information Geostorm. I originally learned to play on an electric guitar, so when I went shopping for my first acoustic (around 1979) I was drawn to both the sound AND the feel of the neck of one particular Custom Balladeer (which I still own.) It felt very comfortable and was an easy transition from my electric, much more so than the other acoustic guitar brands that I tried. So, whoever made that neck (possibly you?) was partially responsible for my first Ovation purchase... Thanks! |
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Location: MA | Just a point of information---
When you say "CMM", I think you really mean "CNC".
A CMM machine (in relation to manufacturing machining) stands for Co-ordinate Measuring Machine. It used to check finished parts for dimensional accuracy.
CNC is Computer Numeric Control and refers to machinery that mills material away (per a computer program) from solid blocks to create a part.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinate-measuring_machine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerical_control
I don't mean to sound didactic but the distinction could be important in technical conversations.
Anyway, that was great information and thanks for sharing.
--Mike |
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Location: New Hartford CT | They used to call it the CMM, don't know why.
I'm currently in a 100,000+ sq ft plant that specializes in gears and I'm surrounded by dozens of CNC's. We also have numerous CMM's worth millions of dollars.
I don't mean to sound defensive but it's kind of funny having the difference pointed out here at the OFC forum considering what I do for a living.
It's amazing what can be accomplished with today's modern machinery but all things considered I still prefer turning the handle on Bridgeport to programming a Mazak. |
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Location: Flahdaw | COI! |
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Location: Texas | This is the point in the poker game where those that chose to hold are saying "dammit, I knew I should have folded". |
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Location: Tennessee | Computerized Milling Machine
;) |
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Location: Warren,Pa. | Wasn't there something called a facsimile machine before all that? It used a pattern neck and had a blank alongside that would get carved exactly into the shape of the pattern. |
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Location: Seymour, Tennessee | Wow!
Thank you for the post neat stuff.
I wonder how many folks guitars here you've had a hand in making, how very cool. |
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Location: New Hartford CT | bauer, the necks got their basic shape on that facsimile machine, aka the Richardson. Then they were ready to be carved.
Once the CMM became self aware the Richardson and most of the carving were not necessary. The necks come off the cmm very near completely shaped, the sanding process after that is minimal in comparison. Back then classic necks were still run through the richardson, maybe more recently they were integrated into the newer process. The classics were always pretty easy to carve anyway as they were in great shape right off the richardson. But raw sanding all those slots...you gotta be tenacious.
I like the way the edges of the headstock are more crisp on the newer Ovations. And the necks have a great feel with a hell of a lot less manual labor. You can't stop progress although it seems a lot of players enjoy the thought of someone putting a lot of sweat into their instrument during the build process.
Did I carve your Ovation? I estimate I carved up to 50% of them 1987-1993 based on overall sales and my weekly average. I used to mark the neck in yellow on the backside tail of the fingerboard 'NH' - in case you ever have a guitar disassembled! Ovation was cranking out over 20,000 units/yr back then, incredible production. All top quality too. |
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Location: Indiana | You guys knew how to make great necks. Perfect profile, elegant transition from neck to paddle. A mahogany skunk striped work of art.
Thanks for the interesting words. |
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Location: GATLINBURG TENNESSEE :) | Did you do different kinds of necks, like solid bodies, basses and acoustics, or did you work on particular models? According to the years you've mentioned, you probably sanded my 1537. |
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Location: New Hartford CT | I joined the OFC sveral weeks ago because 2 of my guitars were stolen. Put up a post in regards to that and a week later another forum member sent me an IM that a forum member had actually bought one of them and posted pics of it! Imagine my shock upon seeing my #698 DB pictured here. The original threads are on this site. To make a long story short the guy had no idea it was stolen, eventually called me and kindly brought it to the local police dept. Turns out he lives about a half mile from my home! Currently working with the police on getting my other guitar back because the same punk stole both the DB, my Millenium and a bunch of PA gear, an amp, etc. I'll post on that if anything good happens but have been advised to keep quiet....
Anyway, in those early posts I pointed out that our machine shop was right next door to Ovation. We made fixtures, 100's of thousands of tension rods, etc. The big issue back then for Ovation was keeping up with demand so they subcontracted and trained to carve a few necks since they were running behind. Well it ended up turning into a huge job for 7 years. I always felt we were sort of a big family anyway, it was a perfect fit and we were able to help them meet their production goals.
Ultimately things changed. They finally got their CMM and then changed the tension rod system to opposing bands of graphite/composite? strips. We didn't get the job so my association with Ovation ended by the late 90's. They were going through major changes in mgmt and I think sales started to drop off at some point. Don't hold me to that as I'm not certain what went on after our relationship came to a close.
BVINCE - I carved every type of neck is the short answer, sorry about being so long winded. Am trying to contribute to the forum in any way possible; because of this place (and Mike Winters, eagle eye) I have one guitar back and the other is on the horizon. When good things happen you have to go with it, right? I'm cking out all the collections and am amazed at the passion. Where else could I post about neck carving and manufacturing and get a response? |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | The Old Farts Club loves history. It's the short term memory we have problems with.
Vince, the 1537s were made mostly in 1983 and were done long before 1987. Geostorm would have been involved in some great models, though. |
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Location: Ct./ USA | Ha, Ha Ha, so ya were a neck carver. How did you stay awake during the day? I am a carver RIGHT NOW! but have been upgraded to Fender. The old days were a pain in the backside because of all of the labor involved. Yea I did it the old way and I must say the new way is muck better. Hamer's procedures just blow any Ovation's past methods, yea I did the rough sanding and the brush sander and the rest of the gig, but the CMS has made it SO MUCH EASIER AND THE PROFILE IS ALL IN THEIR WITH LESS PEOPLE, ITS CALLED PROGRESS. I can not get to involved with the current process cuz I do not want to be called to the carpet. So how is your arm's these days! |
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| If I may - with all due respect, adamas72: I am for progress - we wouldn't have the composite bowl, weren't it for a man with a vision. And of course the new methods must be a lot better, easier and provide for a lot more necks of the same quality.
Standardization.
But there is something in manual building that is special (and i'm not referring to guitars alone). Remember, many works of art, instruments etc are valuable and treasured exactly FOR the peculiarities or even flaws they have.
More than that, I sincerely think that someone who actually toils and sweats over manufacturing an object puts a bit of soul into it. Call it a superstition or maybe wishful thinking :) .
And yes I think both the new and the old metholds should go hand in hand. You need to have cheaper and better guitars for people to afford and start playing. Then again, i'm still dreaming of a custom-made Adamas and I cherish my luthier-built guitars.
You know something? My first Ovation was Korean made. I bought it from Guitarcenter the first time I came to the US. It was (still is, a good friend plays it) a very decent guitar, with a wow-sound when plugged in. And it's probably made mostly by machines.
Therefore hats off to Geostorm98, the neck-carver. I hope you find your gear soon.
Sorry for the lengthy post people, just grew a bit empassionate :) , hope I didn't annoy anyone too much. |
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Location: GATLINBURG TENNESSEE :) | A lack of passion makes for a boring conversation. Thanks for chiming in... That's what most of us are here for. |
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Neck profile philosophy
