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Location: Central Florida | A while back I had a 1718 on the way and Kotadawg asked me to give my thoughts on how the 1718 sounded compared to the 1537. Finally getting around to posting about it. When the 1718 arrived, I was pretty excited. It was beautiful, rich and black and I just KNEW it was gonna sound like a million bucks. But I sure wasn’t prepared for what I heard when I first played it. It was kind of a shock. I knew it would be pretty tough to measure up to the 1537 but it couldn’t be this far away. This is a deep bowl, non cutaway Elite, and it sounds… well… weak. :( So, I figured it must be the strings and it needed some cleaning and oil anyway so I took it all down to clean and restring. Of course as long as it was apart I had to look at the shims and here’s what I found. One normal shim and this one. :eek:
It was evidently done to raise the heavy strings. I took it out and needless to say it sounds like an Ovation now. :) I didn’t replace it with a flat shim and I’m liking the nice low action but it’s got some serious buzzing going on the A and E. It will need a shim put back so I’m going to try and make a proper tapered shim for it. I really like where the higher strings are, and it just needs a little boost on the A and E. Anybody else seen this before? They would never have done this from the factory, right?
Kotadawg, as far as the comparison the 1718 is nice and full now but it ain’t the 1537. The best way I can describe it is that it’s a little harder and tighter sounding. Not unpleasant at all, just different. Not as fluid and thick as the 1537. One would think that these two would sound very close to each other but there is definitely something extra going on with the 1537s.
The preceding is the author's unbiased opinion and was in no way affected by the fact that his first Ovation was a 1537 and he has been horribly spoiled by it. :rolleyes:
Otto
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Location: Brighty in Blighty | Tapered shim? Way to go! My 84C needs the top 2 strings to be higher than the others to prevent buzzing, so I used a playing card cut to half the length of a shim and now it's great. |
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| I think your guitar sounded better because of the new strings and not because you took out this shim. I think these are carbon fiber and they do nothing on my guitars to stop the transfer of sound in comparison with brass or even bone. And yes these are factory shims. USe anything to shim up the low strings for yourself...... Remember; The harder the material the less sound transfer you will loose through the bridge. |
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Location: Scotland | Originally posted by Northcountry:
II think these are carbon fiber Actually, they are Phenolic. Basiclly paper and resin, same stuff used to make Vero-board. There's an Adamas prototype with a Phenolic rather than carbon soundboard, and it sounds amazing |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Factory shims. |
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Location: North Carolina | When I've needed a shim, I've used a piece of the stuff out of which they make printed circuit boards, whatever that is. Worked fine, sounded fine. |
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Location: NJ | ". . the stuff out of which they make printed circuit boards . ."
SameStuff. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | My expired health care card makes fine thin shims.
It's not as thick as a credit card, but I hear they work real well too.
All depends on what you need, but that plastic is pretty firm. |
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Location: Jet City | I read this topic and immediately thought of Lipps Inc.
"Won't you take me to... funky shim"
Sorry, I have nothing actually constructive to add. |
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Posts: 179
Location: Central Florida | Originally posted by Northcountry:
I think your guitar sounded better because of the new strings and not because you took out this shim....
....Remember; The harder the material the less sound transfer you will loose through the bridge. Good point Northcountry. The strings I know were years old, not weeks or even months. They were a major part of the problem for sure.
So, am I worried about nothing then with that shim? I'm not a luthier or a physicist but my first thought when I saw this was that the shim was only allowing the saddle to contact the bridge at the ends with the majority of its length being suspended. String vibration would not transfer to the soundboard worth sheet if all that air is isolating the saddle from the bridge. Isn't it important for the saddle under the middle strings to be in contact also? Or, with this odd shim, does the increased PSI at the ends of the saddle from tension not being evenly distributed sort of make up for that? Or am I obsessing about a difference that might only be measured by laboratory instruments? :rolleyes:
I never looked back when I took it out, that's how sure I was that the shim would hurt the sound. Hmmmm... dilemma of the day. Should I open the bridge back up right now and give the shim another chance? Or go ahead with making a tapered shim before taking things apart again?
What I've read so far seem to suggest that shims are maybe not all that critical.
Otto
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Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Originally posted by Northcountry:
Remember; The harder the material the less sound transfer you will loose through the bridge. OK, maybe I'm way of base here, but wouldn't a softer material absorb more of the frequency, therefore a loss to the pups?
Phenolic is not soft but can flex as opposed to a metal shim.
In other words, a compromise twix rigidity (frequency transfer) vs. comfortability (max surface contact)... 
I would think a tapered shim would be ideal. |
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Location: Orange County, California | Ovation makes these cool white Nylon-like tapered shims. Contact Kim or John at the mothership if you need one. |
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Location: SoCal | Well, when I asked a knowledgeable source, I was told that some of the guys at the factory cut up a plastic milk carton. |
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Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Originally posted by Tony Calman:
plastic milk carton. Ah ha, some of those have a slightly tapered wall; thin in the middle and thicker towards the corners/base. Plus flexibility for surface conformity and restricted compressibility... maaaybee... |
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Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Rigid circuit -board is made of " Perspex or Pertinax " .
Why go trough all the trouble to make a slanted shim ?...use a flat strip ( I use a piece of Cedar -wood wrapping that comes with some cigars ) , and sand -down the saddle -top accordingly...or ask the factory for slanted shims.. :)
Vic
..Life is complicated enough as it is.. |
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Location: Indiana | I've seen similar shims in the past. I personally don't like the idea of not having the entire saddle/PU in contact with the bridge. That's just the OCD me, I guess.
You can evenly taper a factory shim with a belt sander, from full thickness on one end to paper thin on the other. Stacked on top of a standard shim that would be, to me, a better starting point than the one pictured--- without loosing any surface contact. You might have to remove some material from the untapered shim to get the action where you want it.
I make all my shims from ebony scraps. It's my favorite shim material because it's dense, but it's wood. I can hear a difference, but I can't prove it. :)
On a related note, I got a guitar from the factory once where the slot for the PU was routed all the way through the bridge to the soundboard... about a 16th of an inch into the top no less. The slot shipped with 4 shims to compensate for the obvious boo boo. The guitar just didn't sing like I thought it should have, and further, I was concerned about the pressure of the saddle on the bare spruce top.
So I carefully shaped a piece of ebony, the thickness of two shims, to the exact shape of the slot and glued it to the bottom of the slot/bare spruce. Then I used a floating ebony shim, once again the thickness of two factory shims, but tapered slightly. The difference in projection and voice was night and day.
I'm sitting here thinking to myself, where else could I end up in a discussion about Ovation shim material... |
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Location: East Tennessee | Originally posted by Damon67:
I read this topic and immediately thought of Lipps Inc.
"Won't you take me to... funky shim"
Sorry, I have nothing actually constructive to add. I thought it was the name for a new band. :confused:
I also have nothing constructive to add. :confused: |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Lips, the topic for this week. |
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Location: Calgary,Alberta | The shim is call micarta(trade name), used alot in aviation as shims,rubstrips,spacers and washers. Be careful if you decide to grind,cut or sand the dust particles are very much a health hazard...wear a dust particle mask. |
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Location: Calgary,Alberta | Sorry Paul, and yes it is also called phenolic! |
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| 2ifbyC if you read that again it will make sense. I am always difficult to translate. Perhaps I am criptic? Sometimes I think I am just tedious.
The harder the material........ the less sound transfer you will loose between the strings and the bridge.
I make tapered shims from bone or brass to keep a solid connection across the bridge. Usually makes little difference soundwise. Must have some effect though.
" Just keep playing and stop fretting about .....thats the key!" |
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Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Originally posted by Northcountry:
2ifbyC if you read that again it will make sense. You're absolutely correct! You typed faster than I can read! My bad... 
Day-um, I have a love/hate/hate relationship with getting older...  |
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| Ain't it fun! Dam I am at the age where I have close up glasses all over the house now. Don't need to wear them for everything yet. I spend more time looking for the goddam glasses than I do reading the articles of interest. |
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Location: enid, ok | Very interesting! I've never had to install shims. Not much use on most electrics. I have nothing actually constructive to add. |
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Location: Las Vegas, NV | I'm not a vibration (or, I guess it would be Mechanical) engineer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...
Anyway, I agree, the harder the material, typically, the more energy transferred. Just like earthquakes: through bedrock, earthquake waves travel a LONG way; softer material, energy dissipates more quickly.
It also seem like the tapered shim would transfer a more complete range of vibration frequencies then the "stair-stepped" shim. If the shim is rigid, and the two surfaces (soundboard and bridge) on either side are flat, you are, in effect, transferring energy from one surface to the other through a couple of contact "points." This would seem to limit the range or types of frequencies that will "make it through." On the other hand, the tapered shim would work in a similar fashion as using a flat shim. Full range transferred through.
My two cents, anyway... |
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Funky Shim
