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Location: Paris/France | Hi,
Since 3 days, I'm in contact with a nice guy in UK called Anders.
He was looking for information about his guitar because the label is missing.
I've told him that it's a Dlx Balladeer but I'm not sure on the date...
Something is surprising me on this guitar.
It doesn't have the usual dot inlay at 15th fret but a diamond and there's another dot inlay at the 17th fret.
So there's a total of 9 inlays vs 8 usually and it seems not to be a 3 pieces top.
Could it be a very early model???
Anders would like to sell his guitar so, if you're interested, LOOK AT THIS PAGE.
J :)
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Location: Scotland | The inlay pattern is correct for the period. As far as I recall the DB gained fingerboard binding probably around the time of the GC Deluxe Balladeer, but didn't get the extra inlays, Tupp or Moody will correct me if I'm wrong. Eventualy the Deluxe Balladeer morphed into the Legend and the Custom Balladeer filled the gap it left. The 2 piece top would suggest a later model, probably 68/69. I have a 3-piece top version, also for sale. |
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Location: SoCal | The DB got the bound fingerboard in about 1970, about the same time as it got the textured bowl and the winged bridge (that's how it appears in the 1970 catalog). In the 1972 catalog it was officially the Legend and had the same fingerboard inlays as the Glen Campbell models. Also, 1970 was the time that the bracing changed from the X bracing to the VT system.
Also, if he looks inside the guitar at the neck block, he should see the guitar's serial number. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | They changed to 2 peice tops somewhere late 1968. Dave |
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Location: Paris/France | Thanks for your replies.
J :) |
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Location: Brighton, East Sussex. UK | Hi to all the interested folks on this fine forum. BIG thank you to Jerome for all his assistence and help. Feels like home already... Put the kettle on, I've got some buscuits.
The early Ovation Balladeer Deluxe is my acoustic for the last 24/25 odd years. I think it was 1981 or there abouts when I bought it. The poor thing had, by what I was told, been in a small scale domestic flood. I was told this was why there were some cracks to the varnish finish, which have remained more or less the same over the last quarter of a century. The label was still in it when I took possession but was falling off, so I removed it after about 2 years. I think I might still have it, but I have moved so many times since then, I can't locate it. I seem to recall it was a small, rectangular paper design. NO - I can't recall whether the serial number was red, but I'm fairly certain it was a very, very low number.
I have, earlier today, collected the guitar from a local, gifted Luthier and flamenco player. He has had an extending mirror inside the bowl and I can report - there is NO serial number on the triangular jointed neck, anywhere. He is meant to be drawing a sketch of the bracing arrangment but I fear he's forgotten and is off to Spain tomorrow... I/We might have to wait for a few weeks until he comes back.
I thought the date might be either VERY early or a Jan/Feb 1967 build. I seem to recall I did read a FEW were built with two piece tops in 1966 and/or 1967. It does have Grovers and I thought the other ID marks - hole, binding etc - were correct. I did note the extra DOT and it has edged fret markers and NO neck button for strap on the underside.
The other thing I think might be of interest is the inside. Although no serial number seems to be present you can see the hammer indentations around the inside junction where the neck joins the bowl. I guess this was some sort of "tuning" (LMAO). This is the earliest Ovation I've ever come across, although I've only EVER seen 3 early ones, and none had these internal marks on them to such enxtent. It is also a fraction over 6 inches deep - and that's using a spirit level. Does this help, or dirty the already murky waters...?
I will take some more photo's and post them up. My local Luthier artisan has cleaned up the fretboard, sorted out the frets a bit and set it up properly again. It now plays a lot better.
I'm considering selling the guitar as I am raising funds to start my own video production company and very £ is going to count. Although I hardly play now, I do feel the idea of selling it strange.
I look forward to having my Ovation education extended... |
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Location: Scotland | Without an exact serial number you won't get any closer to the date of manufacture than you are now. 3 digits in red ink would make it very early. Every Ovation I've seen of this vintage has had a 3-piece top. The really early ones had a much larger neck-rod cover. Not sure when that changed but it would be very low numbers. Sam might have a better informed guess. 3 digits plus a letter prefix would mean mid 68 to early 70. 4 digits no letter is late 67 to mid 68. My Deluxe Balladeer is a 3-piece top and is serial number 2094. The number is on the label and stamped onto the neck block. It's hardly conclusive, but 2 piece tops generally indicate later production.
Did you find this guitar in the UK? Pre-1970 Ovations are rare as hell over here. I've only seen a handful outside of the USA, and most of them have been mine. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | 3 piece tops went well into the s/n 2000 range. If I had to guess I would say that this is an A- or B- series 3 digits. I have seen quite a few of those that did NOT have numbers stamped on the neck block. Also some that stamped 2xxx but the label said A-xxx. |
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Location: Paris/France | The extra inlay is still a mystery for me because I never seen something like that before and I haven't found anything in my documents!!!
I hope that we will have more information about that unusual feature.
I don't like to feel ignorant... :D :D :D
J :) |
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Location: Scotland | Jerome, I see what you mean about the inlay pattern, it is different to the usual Deluxe Balladeer pattern. This pattern was used on the early Legend which by this time was pretty much a Deluxe Balladeer with a different name. There's one on page 8 "Acoustic Guitar Features" of the 1972 orange catalog on your website. I think that inlay pattern and no fingerboard binding would place this particular guitar around 1969 |
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Location: Brighton, East Sussex. UK | The bridge, two piece top, fretboard dot config are the same as the Lifton edition. Although his example looks a bit nicer then my one, I have found ( ;) - like you ALL didn't know already) an example the same on the Ovation Gallery site and it says 1968. I now have another question, or 2...
In the specification information it states the body binding, meaning the black/white edging to the body is 5-ply. I will upload better pictures, but my example seems to be 8-ply. There are 4x black and 4x white, the 1st 2 of each are very thin and the 2nd 2 of each are bigger.
The inside neck heel strut is also painted a matt black.
The Full length of the guitar is - 41 inches/ 104cm in length. The neck is 41mm at the nut, height (with spirit level flat) 6" + 1/8th inch/ 15.6cm and 39.8cm wide at lower, 25.6cm narrow waist.
I also noticed that in the 1968 Deluxe Brochure - the example seems to be a 2 piece...?
I'm off to bed night - all this excite has kept me up past my bed time. I'm not as young as I like to think I am ;) - Enjoying the train of enquiry - it's a real detective story. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | The 8-ply binding is standard. For some reason they called it 5-ply but they are all 8-ply. Neck blocks painted black is also standard. The 2 piece top became standard sometime in 1968. First on the Deluxe and the Josh White, then later on the Standard. Dave |
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Location: Brighton, East Sussex. UK | I've done a bit more reading up and some further physical examination of the Deluxe. I'll try an internal mirror in a few days... Does anyone want to tell me what pattern the internal bracing will be for an early (66), mid (67) or later DL should, or could be? I've read the online stuff that Jerome and Dave/Gallary have. Just wantedm to know beforehand what the other likely options would be. Then once we have a picture it'll be clearer. I did get the above neck nut measure measurement wrong, but the bowl depth and overall length figures are OK - and I will post pictures later in week - bit busy at present. Does anyone know of a 2nd hand case that would fit the extra deep bowl? I figure a STANDARD DL one MIGHT still be a tight fit? Don't want to shell out for one to find it's too small. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Should be A braced. Any deep bowl Ovation case will fit. The original was either Lifton or Gieb. Dave |
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Location: Scotland | Originally posted by Tupperware:
Should be A braced. Any deep bowl Ovation case will fit. The original was either Lifton or Gieb. Dave A Braced? Ol' Tupp appears to be suffering from temporary Dyslexia or Dementia, or probably both. Until the early 70's all 6 string, steel string Ovations had a slightly modified Martin type X brace. The main differences being the lack of a bridge plate and the angle of the transverse bars. Mine, and a few others I've come across from this period have only the 2 main "X" struts, no transverse bars, but most have 3 bars between the main struts. Some models, but not the Baladeers went to the VT pattern around 1970-ish. The A pattern came in a few years later on the Custom Legend. Variation in bracing patterns on Ovations of this era is pretty much irrellevant in terms of dating.
He's right about the cases though. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Um, well, yes you are correct sir X brace it is ... I'm not dyslexic, I knew the letter was on the left side of the keyboard somewhere.
Dave |
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Location: Brighton, East Sussex. UK | OK - I have more news from the Brighton Balladeer Deluxe Mystery.
I have skillfully managed to gaffer (let's hear a BIG HURRRAY for GAFFER tape!) Taper a small makeup compact, with mirror to a dental tool I had laying around (that's another story ;) ). I have placed a small flourescent light into the bowl and inspected the inside myself. I even have a few photo's were the results can be seen as the mirror is a decent size.
The result is - it's an Ovation X brace! Not an A as Tupperware said it should be. Damnit it :(
So, I got online and then spoke to JHS, Leeds, UK - outstanding customer services they have there, I highly recommend them, especially Nathan. He has looked at a few reference sources they have up there and informed me the FIRST Balladeer Deluxe guitars did have Ovation X bracing first version with the three additional braces on the lower part. This was then developed and only later became a Ovation A version. This would, in itself, place it in the early part of the production period but...
The bowl is a good bit bigger at just over 6 inches and the extra fret DOT marker BUT... Not only does my Deluxe have the earlier X bracing but it's an EARLY X brace pattern I am informed. It does not have the additional 3 braces and looks the same as the one in the PATENT drawing. It has a simple, roughly 1 inch square piece of ply secured over the very centre of the X brace. UNLIKE the patent drawing it is NOT rounded off, only rough. My Deluxe doesn't have the same external heel arrangement as the PATENT, but original step down version due to the deeper bowls on the ealy versions. Seems JHS are going to mail my photo's and other info to US Factory for Head of Production and probably Bill himself - I am honoured indeed. It's raining off and on outside at present. Once it's brightened up I will take some more photo's outside and sendn these and the internal images up for Jerome to do his MAGIC with . I have to say that the OVATION fans and staff all seem REALLY nice, friendly and helpful types - big THANKS to ALL. It reminds me of the Apple Macintosh/ Mac OS "community" which I'm part of.
Glenn - I might well be interested in that case, very kind of you to offer. I would feel better if it was in a HARD CASE now I know more about what I have. When you say SE Penn in your profile - is that US or UK or where? It'll make a difference to the cost. I also need to check that there's enough extra depth to the case for this guitar? I'm sure there will be, you all seem to know your onions here. Thanks again. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | I believe this is what you are talking about:
This is the x-brace intersection on a 1968 GC Deluxe Balladeer. Single cross brace, 2 piece top, no number on neck block, A-xxx series.
Yes you and Temp are correct, the Deluxe Balladeer is X braced.
Dave |
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Location: Brighton, East Sussex. UK | To Paul Templeman - Sorry for delay in answering an earlier question you asked. I did buy this guitar in the UK actually. I bought it off a bloke who had been in the States and, if I recall correctly, was part Canadian. He was selling up and moving to the Continent, France I think. I recall he played OK. It was my first really good acoustic and I've kept it very since. Unlike my Hofner VeriThin Semi which I sold and wish I still had :( Where in UK are you? Near enough to Brighton for me to drop by to show you it? |
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Location: Brighton, East Sussex. UK | Tupperware (Dave?) - thats the chap. It does look a lot like that. I still don't recall a LETTER in the serial number, though it is some time back. When I looked at the old labels in the reference links the Bloomfield one seemed to ring bells but they aren't that different over such a long time ago etc... How come a later model had an earlier brace config then?
I guess I might be here for a specific purpose - researching my Deluxe. I will probably still sell it, but I might buy another more recent one 2nd hand and stick around. I have found myself playing the thing again and enjoying trying to remember the stuff I used to be able to do. I even got a blister :( - I haven't had one of those from playing in many a year ;) I mention this as I sense I'M the TEMP...? I have, truth be told, forgotten so much I couldn't gig, but you never know. Busking in Brighton probably makes more then IT does these days. |
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Location: Brighton, East Sussex. UK | LMAO Glenn - sounds a bit MAD mate, no wonder your lady "her indoors" has been on your case about it. I should speak, our place is bigger but it's also full of "stuff". We look likely candidates for a TV make-over show. Luckily I've digitised most my CHOONS, so the records aren't missed as much as the books, online just isn't the same. I've got a good mental image of your trailer in my mind though. I can imagine making a SHORT about you for Channel 4 - Alternative Lifestyles and Obessions season. You could play the soundtrack tune ;) Top Offer though and THANKS. I guess I'll need one to ensure SHE gets safely to HER new home (sic) when/should I sell her. I'm beginning to feel like I've cheat on my lady and slept with another woman. I wouldn't care but the Delux only makes it out into sunshine a few times a year for last 7 years odd. It's a shame really I know, hence why I got thinking about it. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by HiPhi:
Tupperware (Dave?) - thats the chap. It does look a lot like that. I still don't recall a LETTER in the serial number, though it is some time back. When I looked at the old labels in the reference links the Bloomfield one seemed to ring bells but they aren't that different over such a long time ago etc... How come a later model had an earlier brace config then?
I guess I might be here for a specific purpose - researching my Deluxe. I will probably still sell it, but I might buy another more recent one 2nd hand and stick around. I have found myself playing the thing again and enjoying trying to remember the stuff I used to be able to do. I even got a blister :( - I haven't had one of those from playing in many a year ;) I mention this as I sense I'M the TEMP...? I have, truth be told, forgotten so much I couldn't gig, but you never know. Busking in Brighton probably makes more then IT does these days. Sorry for the confusion. You need a line up card around here sometimes. I tend to use a lot of abbreviations and accronyms due to CTS (Carpel Tunnel Syndrome)
Temp is Paul Templemen. I'm Dave, sometimes known as Tupperware but people confuse me with the other guy named StandingOvation who has that Ovation Gallery website. StandingO (there I go again) used to post here but somewhere around the 5000 count be got booted off for offending the christians and Cliff's choice of favorite BYA. Ooops, sorry, that's Barn Yard Animal. SO makes an occasional cameo. Then there is Moody, not to be confused with MWoody. Sometime I type too fast and it's MMoody or WWoody. They sort it out amongst them selves W's pop up again in the form of Wabbits (aka Waskels) and Jeff W's and CWK's etc. Basically the W key on my computer is completely worn out.
Anyway, I have two words of advice. 1) Don't go way. Stick around here. Honestly we are not a bad bunch at all. Temp and Schroeder do well representing the Island. 2) Don't get rid of your Deluxe Balladeer and get a newer one. You will be very disapointed. Those old Shiny Bowls are like magic. Just ask StandingOvation.
Cheers, Dave |
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Location: Houston, Texas | Dave, don't be so modest.
You even offend the agnostics and atheists.
:D :D :D |
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Location: NJ | . . . but not as much as the christians . . . |
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Location: Brighton, East Sussex. UK | ^ what about the Gnostics, Hindus, Muslims, Toaist and Buddhists? Didn't Cat Stevens, sorry, Yusuf Islam own an Ovation at some point...? I'm fairly THICK SKINNED myself and not easily offended, although I was far from happy when Maggie got re-elected. I can be a bit of a troll myself at times and my sense of humour can sometimes offend. |
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Early Dlx Balladeer Shiny Bowl!!
