|
|
Joined:
August 2005
Posts: 616
Location: cincinnati, ohio | Not that it really matters to me (or probably to any of you, either, because we all love Ovations), but does anyone know how O's stack up in regard to popularity? How are they ranked among the major guitar brands, and have they gained or slipped in popularity over the years? A guy I know (who happens to be a real "wood snob" -- a Taylor owner)says that the lack of really high profile endorsees as compared to years past is an indicator that they're falling back-- there's nobody today of the stature of an Eric Clapton, he claims. As he puts it, "Just a bunch of over- the-hill metal rockers, has-beens and wannabes like Shakira." Then he extolled the virtues of Taylor guitars. I refused to take the bait, said it didn't really matter to me-- all I cared about was how the guitar sounded, and I'd take an Ovation over a Taylor any day. But it did get me to thinking, Out of curiosity, does anybody know how Ovations stack up? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15678
Location: SoCal | Define "popularity". Are you talking sales, number of guitars sold, number of artist endorsements? What? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2005
Posts: 616
Location: cincinnati, ohio | All of the above, if possible. That's probably a tall order, because you can compare them to all acoustics (including custom-mades, Taylors, etc.), or just the ones in their "class" -- whatever that might be. Number of guitars sold would probably be good. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
June 2002
Posts: 6202
Location: Phoenix AZ | In terms of Sales, I don't know where Ovation ranks in Market Share. But the factory seems pretty busy and I would guess output is fairly steady.
In terms of quality and what you get for your money from Ovation, it's never been better than it is right now. Some of the new LX series, the Traditional series, and some of the new and reissued Adamas are amazing values.
Sadly, Artist Endorsements is where Ovation falls flat on their faces. It just does not exist. An ex-center fielder for the Yankees and a few over the hill rockers. They build some great shit. The problem is that almost nobody sees or hears it anymore.
To most of the guitar world, the days when it was "cool" to play an Ovation are long since over, and it's all due to lack of Artist endorsements.
Dave |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | Tell your Taylor-friend something (from me):
"Bahahahahah!! . . . . "
(I'm sure he'll understand) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2005
Posts: 616
Location: cincinnati, ohio | Hey, Cliff
Actually, if you notice, I just said he was a guy I know-- not a friend! And I already DID tell him something similar-- although it had a little more of an Anglo-Saxon overtone. He sure understood THAT! Next time I see him, I'll tell him what you said. I'm sure he WILL understand.
Dave-- I know what you mean about the artist endorsement thing. When they first came out, just about everybody wanted to get their hands on them. Now you don't see them much. I think we're in the throes of a "wood snob" epidemic. A lot of people rave about Taylors. I've heard three different people playing them (I'm not familiar with the models), and I wasn't that impressed. Two of the three admitted that my old Balladeer sounded better both acoustically AND plugged in. The third one-- who wouldn't admit it-- is the guy mentioned above. No surprise there. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
April 2004
Posts: 13303
Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | The Doyle Dykes Signature Taylor that I have is an incredible sounding guitar.
Is it better than my Ovations?
Just a different flavor of ice cream.
but I will say it took a Taylor that retails at 5 grand to compete with my O's and whenever I play the Taylor, I am scared shitless I am going to scratch the finish. With my O's, I just grab it and play the hell out of it. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2005
Posts: 486
Location: North Carolina | Doesn't matter. If I like the instrument I'll play it. I don't need anyone of any stature to tell me I should or shouldn't. BTW, I also own Taylors and like them a lot, as I like my Ovations. Apologies to anyone: None. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2005
Posts: 3410
Location: GA USA | I was thinking about the endorsement issue a while back as I was looking through Guitar World Acoustic. There were NO Ovations at all, aside from the full page ad. Not a single picture of a guitar player had one in it. Surely there's a current top artist out there who'd benefit from a partnership. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 1071
Location: Carle Place, NY | Originally posted by stephent28:
Whenever I play the Taylor, I am scared shitless I am going to scratch the finish. Yup, that's why I sold my Taylor and bought an Ovation. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2002
Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | Capt. Handles.
Sure there are artists who could benefit from a partnership. Now stop thinkig like Ovation and start thinking like Kaman Music Corp. with Tak, Hamer, Gretch, LP, Toca, Genz-Benz and all the rest as well to market. There's one guy over all this with one budget(yes there are separate product guys for each line, but they have VERY short leashes). The budget is about enough for 2 of these lines, not all, this is a Corporation after all remember. Furthermore it is part of Kaman Corporation and their hot button is return on investment. They also have this coroprate mantra of "Think Lean" which in practice usually winds up being a strangle hold on any speculative spending(read planting seeds for the future). Every dollar spent has to be justified by what it's return will be. This is not a fertile environment to develope relationships with endorsees.
Then there is the people side who are supposed to go out and get them but that's another issue already well covered here.
In all it comes down to marketing, click.
What does seem to be happening, thank goodness, is that there is a ground swell of support, although small, that propells the line along. This OFC is one, and forty years of being Ovation is another. It's running on momentum with a pinch of help thrown in from corporate from time to time. Ovation is still airborn but not flying high like many of the competition who are not opposed to cultivation spending to build market share. I doubt Bob Taylor ever wonders what his return on investment is "this week".
Enuf of this. To close my rant I'll say that there is a wonderful book written by a Canadian Woman from McGill University, probably 15 years ago. It's called "Artists, Craftsmen, and Technocrats" It's about the rise and fall of companies, how the Artist's vision gets it started and growing and how eventually the technocrats(read fucking bean counters) strangle everything and kill it.
I read it and was suprised to see the same thing happening at Kaman and I gave my father a copy to read, he told me he didn't have time, give it to ###### and he'd read it. Of course, Mr. #### was the biggest Technocrat of all. Soooo, none of this should be a suprise. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
June 2002
Posts: 6202
Location: Phoenix AZ | Question: Just how much benefit (what ever that means) is it for Ovation that they are part of KMC. Compared to being a private standalone guitar builder like some of the others ???
I'm not dumping on KMC or anything, just curious. Obviously there are advantages to being under someone's umbrella, especially when it rains. How does a company like Taylor do it? The seem wildly successful, incredible market presence, top artists use them, ... Forget if you like or dislike the instrument, the point is that the company seems to do very well. Same for Martin. How do they do it. And would they be even BETTER offf if they were part of a bigger corporation, like KMC?
Just curious.
Dave
Dave |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2005
Posts: 1126
Location: Omaha, NE | How does a company like Taylor do it? Remember, Bob Taylor languished in the wilderness for a very, very long time before Taylor guitars started making a serious impact. Compare to Ovation, which had a very high profile presence virtually from the start. Charlie Kaman was already a very sucessful business owner when they started Ovation. BT was just a kid in San Diego who wanted to make guitars.
My impression of the Taylor Guitar Company is that BT has a singularly correct vision of where he wants to go. The Taylor gestalt is to use lots and lots of technology to produce what is fundamentally a very traditional guitar. While he has no formal engineering education, BT is a true industrial engineer. He understands process and he understands efficiency.
He also seems to have a keen sense of communication with his customers*. The videos on the Taylor website are fantastic. The "Factory Fridays" series is wonderful. This month, they have an extended tour of the neck section, showing the various processes used to build Taylor necks. It is really good stuff, and it seems to be generated by a genuine desire on BT's part to show the world what they are doing. When you buy a Taylor guitar, you get a DVD showing in meticulous detail how to connect the Expression System to a PA, including lots of details on how to setup and balance the PA.
For most companies, if they spent the time and money developing some of the custom machinery that Taylor has, they would lock the stuff away and make all the employees sign non-compete/non-disclosure contracts. Taylor puts videos on the Internet! And even tosses in comments like "these pneumatic cylinders have about a hundred pounds of pressure in them".
In comparision to Ovation, I think it is fair to say that Taylor puts the technology in the plant, where Ovation puts the technology in the guitar. Its an interesting study in different approaches. I have one of each, and like both companies for what they have done.
Interesting thing in terms of popularity: When I play my Adamas at church, I get lots of "cool guitar" comments. When I play my Taylor, I get nothing. I would have thought that to the general public, the Ovation look would seem a little dated, but I guess not.
Jeff
* Of course, the exception here is his behavior re the Taylor Forum |
|
| |
|
Joined:
June 2002
Posts: 6202
Location: Phoenix AZ | Jeff, That's one of the most well thought out, well written posts I have ever read. Thanks so much for sharing your insights.
Dave |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Originally posted by Standingovation:
Jeff, That's one of the most well thought out, well written posts I have ever read. Thanks so much for sharing your insights. Doubled up on the meds this morning, eh?
I agree, Jeff. Well done. Gives a good perspective on the differences between O & T. We're just not used to that level of reason and insight around here. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
April 2006
Posts: 1
| Taylor has a Taylor.
Collings has a Collings.
Santa Cruz has Richard Hoover.
Gibson's got Henry(well they can't all be winners)
Ovation's got? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13996
Location: Upper Left USA | Why Ovation?
About 1977-80 I had a Friend who was, beyond doubt, an Ovation fanatic. This is where the seed started. In 79 or 80 I picked up my Custom Balladeer and found that I could play clearer and without amplification at Friend's weddings and such.
A long hiatus followed with minimal artistic expression and several bills.
December 26, 2003 I found this place and learned about the technological and design changes that had taken place while I was away. Wow!
Now that I am playing regularly and pursuing some woodworking efforts around the Ovation designs I owe most of my appreciation for Ovations to this site and to the Customer Service people like John Budny! They are my "Personal Contact" that brings it home.
The product needs to be good but it's people that sustain the loyalty! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2005
Posts: 616
Location: cincinnati, ohio | Interesting, Jeff. I think you hit the nail on the head. Taylor seems to have a better handle on how to run a railroad. Ovation is too locked into the corporate mode at this point, I think, to have a feel for how to actually reach people. It's all about numbers and the bottom line. Right now, Taylor has the personal touch Ovation had when it first started out (interesting that you mention the detailed instructional DVD. I didn't even get a MANUAL when I got my Ibanez. When I called them, they replied, "No havee manual").
As far as the "coolness" factor goes, Ovation guitar designs are timeless. The different models look pretty much the same now as they did 40 years ago, with minor variations. They'll ALWAYS look slick |
|
| |
|
Joined:
June 2004
Posts: 580
Location: NW NJ | Slick as butter on the head of a bald monkey. The look is what attracted me to O's in the first place - then I just coulldn't put them down. Add this board and Budny and Co. and I just think there is no reason not to have at least a few flavors of Ovations.
And, in case you can't tell from my list, I REALLY like the look (and sound) of the multi-holes. Gotta find a deal on a single hole to "round out" the stable ... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12759
Location: Boise, Idaho | You need some variety there, too. 12 fret, wide neck, nylon string etc. At least one of each. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2003
Posts: 396
| Taylor makes some excellent guitars, but I wouldn't say the bang for the buck is that great (you pay top dollar for what you are getting.
Prestige and market share are greatly aided by artist endorsements. How many Taylors have been sold because Dave Matthews used one? I don't know if Ovation makes much effort, or if they can't get artists without paying out big bucks. It would seem obvious that the endorsement thing should be a huge concern. Any quotes from the Ovation people on this topic? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
September 2004
Posts: 777
Location: East Wenatchee, WA | I just won over a newbie the other day. A lady who visited our church came up afterwards and wanted to know all about the "guitar" I was playing as she was going to start learning guitar and loved the way my Adamas looked and sounded. She choked when I told her how much (beginners usually do), but I pointed her to this web site to find the best Ovation product in her price range. Her husband told me last night that she had bought an O and already broke her first string (trying to over tighten the High E, but I bet is was from aggressive finger picking...think?).
Anyway, my point being, Ovations are a lot like Religion. You win converts....One Soul at a Time... :rolleyes:
Well it sounds like a good advertising slogan :D |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12759
Location: Boise, Idaho | Good job Jeff. I may have lost a convert. See the thread on the Ultra GS neck in the For Sale section. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 29
Location: NW Ohio | Don't post often, although I'm here every day. This topic is of interest to me. My thoughts on this subject are, what goes around comes around. With the exception of Martin, acoustic guitars seem to be trendy. The next big thing. Taylor, Takamine(Iknow they are Kaman)and a host of custom builders are popular at the present time with the artist you see on TV. In the real world such as bars, clubs, and (although not the same category)churches, you see Ovations and Martins. On any given day in my neck of the woods at Put-In-Bay on South Bass Island here in Ohio, I'll gaurntee that the majority of the acoustic artist play Ovations. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 1421
Location: Orange County, California | Originally posted by Dogbreath:
Taylor has a Taylor.
Collings has a Collings.
Santa Cruz has Richard Hoover.
Gibson's got Henry(well they can't all be winners)
Ovation's got? ...A variety of fine guitars to fit the playing style and accoustic-electric needs of the performing musician or hobbiest, vetran or newbie, from a couple of hundred to several thousand dollars, all with unique voices to fit almost any taste.
And we'll let *almost* anyone in our club, even if they do play and own some Mar-Tay-Avee wood-boxes :p :D I wish the same could be said for other manufacturers forums and use-groups. |
|
| |
Just how popular are Ovations anyway?
