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February 2002
Posts: 48
Location: CT | I got screwed. My long-awaited '88 finally showed and it is in very poor shape. The fingerboard and bridge are dried out, the neck is badly bowed, but most upsetting is that the back of the neck (and the neck is the entire reason I wanted this guitar) has been unforgivably abused. Several cracks and one dent that implies the guitar has been dropped. I'm sure with some labor that I can make the guitar "playable", but I doubt I'll ever pick it up and be happy with it.
Sadly, all of my complaints are subjective/ quantitative, and I feel like I have no recourse. I am extremely upset about this and I wish I could just get the guitar out of my sight... |
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May 2002
Posts: 1026
Location: Back in the Valley of the Sun Mesa Az. | Sorry to hear about your troubles.Was this guitar bought through e-bay? I am in the process of looking for a used (not abused)Ovation as well. I hope it didn't cost you too much monetarily, I can tell you've already paid a dear price emotionally.
an feel your pain)man1 |
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December 2001
Posts: 10583
Location: NJ | Darc
what a drag!!! and I know you were looking for another one of these.
I hope you can get to the point where you can play it at least. |
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February 2002
Posts: 48
Location: CT | Thanks. I spent about $500, which would have been a steal if it were in even reasonable condition. As it stands, I got taken. What this guy called "normal wear" is unbelievable. The leaves around the sound holes or worn down to - and through! - the wood, right to the face of the guitar. Sigh. Who the hell picks like this?? The forgotten woodchipper technique.
Here's a question, since I'm probably stuck with this guitar: if I strip the neck down, what's under there for wood? |
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January 2002
Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | Maybe this was CC DeVille's personal guitar!?! It went on tour with him and was with all those babes! We can get you a letter and a signature on the guitar and then you can donate it to the next Hard Rock opening and get a nice tax right-off.
Just a suggestion..... |
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February 2002
Posts: 48
Location: CT | Donate? I spent the last of my money on this piece of crap. My landlord would prefer that I "donate" last months rent. Hard Rock will be fine without me.
Meanwhile, I took the strings off last night, and the neck practically fell off... |
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March 2002
Posts: 15678
Location: SoCal | If you bought the guitar on eBay, have you gone back to the buyer and seen what he will do to make this right? Did you pay with a credit card? You must have options on this. |
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December 2001
Posts: 7237
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I agree.. give the seller a chance to make it right. He may not, but I have found on a couple of occations that the seller really knows nothing about they are selling, and do their best to describe the piece. Of course the things you are seeing should have shown in pictures easily. That is my other rule... unless I know the person, or at least know of the person, pictures are a must. I also really read feedback from anyone I buy or sell from. |
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Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | Forgive my naivetee as I've never dealt w/ebay (nor do I really WANT to - I'm reticent about buying NEW stuff via mailorder, let alone someone's used stuff over the Internet).
Doesn't this poor kid have some kind of friggin' recourse?!?! Don't they have some type of minimalistic return policy or is it strictly "caveat emptor"?
If that's the case, you guys can HAVE it!!
I know there are a lot of you have had a lot of good experiences both buying and selling w/it, but if it all comes down to some clown with a working knowledge of PhotoShop and a good line of shit being able to "stick" someone like darc with some crap without at LEAST 24 hours to return it.....I'll sick to buying face to face, thank you. |
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February 2002
Posts: 48
Location: CT | I can't think of any better way to clear this up than like so:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=870006353
A couple of key things to note: 1. "AS IS". 2. "Clean condition... normal wear."
#2 is a blatant lie. Now that I've looked at the guitar a bit closer (the fingerboard is separated from the top and the neck is separated from the body) there is no question about that. But #1 goes a long way toward absolving him of this. In short, I think I am screwed. Typical.
Note also that the pictures are a little smeary, all shot from the front, etc. I blame my own optimism here.
The real kicker: I wrote the guy and he offered that I send him the guitar back and he pay me whatever money he manages to sell it for again... minus fees. In other words, I get whatever the next sucker pays (half what I paid if he's half-honest...) Man, I don't even want to be a part of that. It's ugly all around.
People amaze and astound me.
[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: darc ] |
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April 2002
Posts: 51
Location: Hot Springs, Arkansas | There are a couple of things you can do. First, tell him that unless he lets you return the guitar and refunds your money, you'll leave negative feedback. That hurts sellers more than you think. Second, eBay offers some relief for defrauded buyers, check out your remedies with them. i thinkthey will refund up to $200 or $300 dollars, but you'll need to document the condition of the guitar with photos and maybe an independent assessment of the guitar's condition. Finally, I looked and your seller has pretty good feedback. You may want to appeal in a sincere way to his better nature. You can yell and scream all you want (I'm implying you did that) but remember- he has your money. I've always found you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Anyway, you'll sleep better at night if you treat people with respect, even the crooks.
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Morse |
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Posts: 51
Location: Hot Springs, Arkansas | 4th line up from the bottom. Read that: "I'm NOT implying ..." |
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March 2002
Posts: 389
Location: RI. That small State out East | Darc.... This takes guts. Send it back. You will offer to pay for the shipping... But you want your money back. (I did this with a 12 string that had a "replacement" neck... Nothing was said in the write up... My guitar tech couldn't make it a 12...) I didn't give a "negative ebay" to the seller, and told him I wouldn't... I waited 6 long days. But he sent me my money. I was out the $40.00 paid for shipping.
Ebay will help send a letter on your behalf...
If it's that bad... Dump it. |
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December 2001
Posts: 7237
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Woz,
I wouldn't defend a bad seller on eBay... but It's an Auction. Darc can only hope that the seller just didn't know what he was selling and thought it was ok. If not, there is not much eBay can do. It's an auction... ALL items are sold "as is". People seem to forget that. Even regular buisnesses are free of "refunds and returns" on new items on eBay unless they state they will do it in the ad. It's an auction and auction rules apply. I would NOT send the item back to the seller without arranging it first. The seller has no obligation to return the money unless he wants too. |
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December 2001
Posts: 10583
Location: NJ | First I know Darc and I know how long he has looked for one of thses guitars and to finally get it and to have it be a POS must be truly devastating to him. I know how passionate he is about music and serious he is about it that I can only imagine his heartbreak. I also know that Darc sold an Adamas SVt under market price a short while ago to help make ends meet etc and that only adds to the devastation of this story.
Unfortunately the facts. the word "pawn" is in the seller's name so probably it is a pawn shop and therefore if he could not sell it in the shop it goes on e bay.
the pics were poor and did not detail any of the damage.
"as is" absolves the seller from any refund.
The description of the guitar was limited and although said player wear that phrase can mean anything.
E bay will do NOTHING to resolve a dispute they stay out of it. the only way they will get involved is if it was high profile or fraud.
I have to say that this situation sucks and the only thing I can say is to try to clean the guitar up the best you can get it as playable as possible and unload it. this guitar will only hold bad memories for you if you don't |
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Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7237
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I would be curious to what the seller sais. Especially from a pawn shop, they may just want it returned. I've had good luck with just asking the seller, but sometimes... I've heard it doesn't work out. Pawn shops around here, have a 30 day return policy. Just because it's not in the ad, don't assume it doesn't exist.
Good Luck |
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Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 48
Location: CT | For those of you who expressed curiosity or more (thanks) here is the end of our e-mail exchanges. (I think it's fair to be public with these under the circumstances, most of the words are my own anyway.) As far as I can tell, I come out several hundred dollars behind no matter what, and I can only hope that a good luthier can make this guitar playable for me. If I send it back to him, there's no telling how much money he'll return. His actual verbiage concerning the "difference" is just weird, and probably misleading:
___
Thanks for replying Harvey, and I can see where your proposition is fair.
Unfortunately, when I got the guitar home to clean it up, it turned out to be in even worse condition than I originally anticipated. The fingerboard has separated from the top of the guitar, and once the strings were off, it was apparent the neck had separated somewhat from the body. This is considerable structural damage.
If you represent the guitar honestly on e-Bay it will probably sell for much less, and I stand to lose a great deal of money. In part this is my own mistake – I should have inquired further about the condition of this instrument. I will seek to have the guitar restored myself, since that's my only hope of recovering part of my investment, but I'm afraid I will have to leave negative feedback based on your description of the item versus its actual condition.
-Marc.
-----Original Message-----
From: Harvey Kornfield [mailto :p awnharv@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 7:25 PM
To: Marc Benigni
Subject: RE: Payment for Ovation '88
Hello Marc,
If you want to send it back to me,
I will relist it and send you back the differance it sells for, - fees both times.
Please let me know what you want to do.
Thanks. Harvey
Marc Benigni wrote:
Hello Harvey,
I received the Ovation this morning. Thank you for the quick delivery.
I don't mean to be adversarial in any way, but I have to say that I'm very dissatisfied with the condition of the guitar. I know that I am at a loss here since you advertised the sale “as is”, but I don't think many players would regard this guitar as merely showing “normal wear” as you also stated. For my own purposes, this guitar is not playable in its present state.
I just want to know whether you would consider buying the guitar back from me and selling it to someone who's expectations might be more compatible. I know there were several other interested bidders. Of course I would cover shipping and eBay fees so that there would be no loss for you, except in terms of your trouble. Please let me know whether you would consider this.
Thanks again,
Marc Benigni. |
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December 2001
Posts: 10583
Location: NJ | no matter how you look at it the deal stinks |
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May 2002
Posts: 3005
Location: Las Cruces, NM | I have been thinking about this, and a few things are evident:
1. You have all the parts to a guitar that you really wanted.
2. The neck is a disaster, and from what I've read it appears the nsck is most of the problem.
3. A guitar neck is a bunch of pieces of wood glued together and attached to the body.
4. There are books out there that tell you how to repair a neck.
5. You are facing many costs to send it back etc. all of which are less than the cost of some clamps, tools to repair the neck.
6. If you can't do it by yourself, find a friend with some talent to help you (WATCH OUT FOR B--L S--T)
7. You would then have a guitar that would have more of your input than just writing a check to buy it. and one you wanted to start with but now would really have some personal value.
Think about it.
Again, I truly Sympathize, the world gives us all lemons, I bought a mexican "Gibson" 12 string once. Bill and I at Poway Music converted it into the first acoustic bass but it didn't catch on till 20 years later.
Bailey |
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February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | Your're in this so deep now, I would condsider contacting Ovation & have them do the work, it may cost a little more, but at least it'll be right, & it sounds as though it's not beyond restoration. The guy who sold you that guitar stinks, & for what negative feedback is worth, you should stick it to him big-time
Paul |
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March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | "Careful with that axe, Eugene"
I agree w/Paul.
NOT that I'm doubting your repair abilities, but if I were in your position, I'd hand it over to the "experts". Granted, it's gonna cost yet some more money, but you've gotten this far to get the guitar that you obviously REALLY wanted - don't "cheese out" now.
Again, I'm not questioning your ability, but what if you buy the tools, read the books, etc., and for some reason or other it's still "not right"?
It'll probably cost you TWICE as much to have Ovation undo your work and rebuild it.
(For what it's worth), here's what I'd do:
Take a LOT of REAL GOOD, DETAILED pictures of the guitar from all angles of the problem areas.
Send the pics (and your story) to Ovation Service in the hope that they can give you a "ballpark" idea of what you may have to further "invest", and THEN decide if you wanna take a stab at it.
I know it's emotionally "draining" to be looking at the guitar that you've always wanted, and all you wanna do is PLAY it, but you CAN'T.
Don't risk a "Kwik Phix" (my band's name - shameless plug - sorry.) that possibly MAY leave you feeling worse than you do now. |
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December 2001
Posts: 10583
Location: NJ | cut your losses you gotta know when to hold em and when to fold em. |
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February 2002
Posts: 48
Location: CT | Thanks again.
Actually I'm a step ahead of those who recommend repairs (and no, I wouldn't go near these myself) which is the main reason I wasn't more adamant about getting a refund. (I'm not always so polite after getting ripped off...) I knew I'd get partially burned no matter what, and a very kind friend at Ovation had contacted me with some repair recommendations. So I think restoration is my best hope. (Al, I haven't decided yet whether I will attempt to restore to make this a keeper, or just make it an honest sell and relist it. The fact remains that an Ovation with 24 frets on all 6 strings is not an easy find.)
However, when this friend contacted me I wasn't aware of the scope of the damage, so there's no telling what this might cost. I just hope the parts that turned me on to this instrument in the first place aren't permanently compromised. (i.e. How musical will the position of those upper frets be now that the neck and fingerboard have been floating for an unknown length of time... creepy.)
It's been a bad run on e-Bay for me lately. Some of the items I desperately needed to sell have been held up by non-payers, and now this. If you try to ride eBay too long, it's a wash at best. Sometimes I think the only folks who benefit are UPS and FedEx. |
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December 2001
Posts: 7237
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Darc,
Just curious as I mentioned earlier, my knowledge of the roundbacks is limited... but.. Wouldn't Ovation have (or be able to make) a new neck... Instead of repair, just replace the whole neck or the parts that need replacing? I don't know if this is even feasable, and figured the answer would edumacate me. |
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Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 48
Location: CT | I doubt Ovation would have one of these particular necks just banging around - I don't think any other models have a comparable fingerboard. And I have to assume that making a new one would be extremely cost-prohibitive. Any other neck and I wind up with a bastard guitar that doesn't present the features I was looking for - I'd have done better with a used Balladeer or whatever.
It's one of those classic cases of "my guitar needs a new guitar" - the neck, for me, is really the whole point.
If anyone at Ovation would like to chime in to correct me, I'm all ears. But for now I'd rather protect the generosity of the employee I spoke with.
Again, I really appreciate you folks giving this so much thought. |
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1988 Collector's DOA
