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Location: Phoenix AZ | I had the pleasure of having Paul Moody over to my house yesterday and as you can imagine we talked a lot about Ovations and played more than a few different models. Dave
http://www.fourthworldwebdesign.com/ebayphotos/DavePaul.JPG
http://www.fourthworldwebdesign.com/ebayphotos/THeads.JPG |
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Location: Madison, Wisconsin | Nice pics guys! It's always great to see a face behind the name. I'm having a hard time remembering faces from the tour. Thanks for the post. |
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | GREAT to see you guys and your guitars in person, gives us members some idea of who the hell we are talking to. I wouldn't pay $300 an hour to either of those pickers, I guess that the PI is on my right, is that right? But who knows, if Al keeps bugging us, we may need a PI to calm him down.
Bailey :cool: |
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Location: NJ | PI's from CA are just not like the ones in Jersey.
Where's the leather?
Where's the cigarettes?
Where's the pistol?
Where's the "tude"?
Where's the flashy car?
Where's the hot bim?
God Bless New Jersey for keeping all our stereotypes in check. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Al, you failed to realize that there is a sub-category of PI's. These are the very speciality ones that you would hire to recover stolen or lost musical instruments, find the illusive dream guitar or dig up some dirt on instruments so obscure that most of us would question why even make the effort. The stereotype is not leather and cigarettes - it's a Hawaiian shirt and a brown molder guitar case. This is a very exclusive group and the cost of admission is a sub-100 OFC member number and a minimum 4 digit posting total. Plus a little experience in Private Investigation and the ability to rip off a lick here and there. Dave |
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Location: San Bernardino, California | Interesting chord you're playing. :D |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | I call it your basic "F" chord. Dave |
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Location: SoCal | I want to take this moment and say that Dave Witko is a very nice person. We say and talked and played for a couple of hours on Saturday and then he came out to the church where I was playing Sunday nite.
In fact, everybody I've met on this board and been terrific (well, then there's Al).
When I went to Dave's, I took over my old Legend, which is strung Nashville (high string). He is a little paranoid tho'. When I left, he insisted on opening my case to make certain that his Folklore Deluxe wasn't in the case. Honest, Dave, I don't know how it got in there! And was that an "F" chord or an "F-U" chord?
Unless you've played one, you almost can't have any idea just what a wonderful guitar the F.D. really is. It may be one of the best guitars I've every played, and I'm going to start saving now to afford one. The only thing on it I would have done differently, is I would have put on multi layered wood binding on the body instead of whatever it is that was used. Having said that, I'll take one exactly the way it is. Just wonderful. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | What makes Pauls comments above very interesting, is that on this board we seem to go on and on about why can't Ovation make guitars like they "used to" - what ever that means. So Paul comes over and plays a whole bunch of older Ovations including Josh White, Adamas, deep shiny bowl Glen Campbell, shiny bowl Balladeer and Deluxe, etc. and what does he come away impressed by? The NEWEST model Ovation of the whole lot - The Folklore Deluxe. Isn't THAT interesting.
So why in the hell did Ovation only make 50 of these things, and even more puzzling than that - at least two of them are still new and unsold! I think what may have happened (just a guess) is that the factory guys did exactly what they set out to do - build an "old school" Ovation that had an acoustic sound that would knock the strings off anything wood topped that came before it. And boy did they succeed in my opinion and in the opinion of every single person that's seriously sat down and played my FD. But somehow the Marketing and Sales guys didn't position and promote it correctly. Who was the target buyer and how was it advertised? Seriously, the only way I stumbled on this guitar at ALL was looking at old Kaman press releases on-line. On top of that, it's almost a slap in the face that this guitar can be had for about $1300. If you put it in a room side by side with Martins and Taylors and put a $2500 price on it, plus advertised and positioned it properly I would bet many hundreds a year would easily sell. I was told by someone at the factory that this guitar is in big demand in Asia. Why is that? What does that market see that the US market does not?
This whole FD issue is one of the most puzzling things to me about Ovations these days. We on this board criticize the company for not making the kind of guitar that we think we want. But then when they do, and nobody buys it. I can't figure it out.
And I DID check Pauls case, just to be sure he wasn't taking a souvenior back to LA with him. By the way, the body binding is tortoise shell and matches the rosette. The wbwbw 5 ply would also look good.
Dave |
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Location: out there | It starts to become more clearerer.
The problem is not the factory but with the Marketing and Sales. They must not have a clue what guitars are supposed to be and were recruited off the Yugo sales lot After the INS chased all the good ones off. Guys, If you can't hear the music, get the Hell out of Dodge and let someone else in who can!
OK, maybe it's not the M&S guys but the guy who they report to who refuses them any budget and keeps total dominant control over his domaine of which he, of course doesn't understand.
Or maybe the problem is higher up? Or maybe there are more than one of these roadblockers in the way?
Whatever it is there clearly are some people in the way who need to GTFO and let people who understand guitars do what they do best.
Of course this is all just bitching cause we know it will never do any good. I feel better anyway. Now where did I leave my Folklore Delux? |
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Location: NJ | <>
that is simple because that is all they had orders for.
The guitar was introduced at the Namm show. That is the MAJOR place that guitars are ordered by dealers. It has to impress the dealer before it gets to the public. If the dealers do not order them then you will not see them plain and simple.
I think that the majority of Ovation delears are not interested in a "custom" guitar or a on off Ovation guitar yet. They buy their collector's edition each year (maybe) and the standard models that they can sell and are not interested in a guitar that is not in the catalog. It is hard to promote and sell.
The guitar FD is rather nice, It could have been better, and I think the guitars that you will see coming out of Ovation in the Next year or so will be better. Some of the prototypes I have played that have some improvements are great guitars and these improvements will come on regular models.
You can throw the blame on marketing if you wish, but I blame the overall perception that Ovation only has certain models and that's it. The superstore mentality that has a ton of celebrities and then 6 super shallow balladeers and one lonely Melissa adamas is part of the problem. Or the MF business plan where all models are listed with cheap prices but nothing is in stock since they have to order it just like the little guy BUT they have it out front with a super cheap price free case and free shipping which no only violates the MAP pricing but provides no incentive for the little shop to order any high end guitars that they will make small profits on since they have to compete with big boxes that don't even have the inventory.
The guitars are out there, they are just not easy to get to. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Al, I don't meanto throw undo blame on the marketing guys. In fact one of them actually had the 'nads to pick up a guitar and entertain this motley crew of OFC folks! Great people with great intentions. But it sounds like a vicious cycle -
Dealer only orders what he thinks he can sell
Factory only builds what is ordered
Stores only display what is available
Consumer only buys what store sells
on and on and on and in the end Ovation gets this reputation as a mass producer of middle of the road guitars in wild colors that are only really designed for playing live.
OK, maybe that's an overstatement. I assume every guitar maker follows this same routine. So how come Ovation shows up at NAMM with a Tangent and a Folklore Deluxe and the dealers only want the Tangent. But Taylor and Martin show up with traditional wood box high guitars that sound no better than the FD and the deals want THEM?
I'm glad you are impresed with some of the protos you have seen and hopefully many of theses features penetrate the Ovation line. But I'll say it again - in my opinion, the problem has nothing to do with the guitars themselves. Ovation builds some of the best stuff in the world - the problem is that most people don't know it, or don't believe it's true.
Dave |
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Location: SoCal | Ok, my two cents (or even less sense):
I think Ovation today (marketing), is fighting Ovation of 10 years ago (marketing). They positioned themselves as the acoustic electric guitar that could be played on stage. That was were they perceived the market to be (right or wrong, I won't second guess them).
But now, the question is, how to crack back into the "We build great sounding acoustic guitars that can be plugged in as well" market. Not easy to do.
And people like Paul T., who really and truly understand the difference between the two, say that a good acoustic guitar offstage is not necessarily going to be a good plugged in acoustic guitar on stage. This gives credense to what the marketing people have been up against.
But the reality of the situation is that a lot of performers are playing full size box guitars on stage, plugged in. A super shallow bowl may be better on stage to those who are truly knowledgable, but perception is all.
If the marketing people at Ovation want to change the perception of Ovation to a great unplugged guitar that can be plugged in, it's not going to happen tomorrow. It's going to take time and energy. From what Al says, they are moving in that direction. Keep in mind that this board has been around for about a year and a half. The marketing push is going to be a five to seven year push. If it happens sooner, be happy. At least Ovation is moving in the right direction.
By the way, I'm trying to figure out how to afford a new Folklore Deluxe. I played one, and I'm a believer. But first, my wife says new carpeting up stairs, pay off credit cards, etc. But at least now it's on the "To Do" list.
But what do I know? I'm just a small time thug who's been smacked in the head one too many times. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | The only way to break the "cycle" above is to somehow get Ovations in a position so that the first step of the cycle is "customer asks dealer for XX guitar." |
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Location: Scotland | Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
And people like Paul T., who really and truly understand the difference between the two, say that a good acoustic guitar offstage is not necessarily going to be a good plugged in acoustic guitar on stage. This gives credense to what the marketing people have been up against.
But the reality of the situation is that a lot of performers are playing full size box guitars on stage, plugged in. A super shallow bowl may be better on stage to those who are truly knowledgable, but perception is all.
I've said on several occasisons that the things that make a realy good acoustic guitar inspiring to play are exactly the same things which make it difficult to amplify. (I'm talking at concert levels here, not a coffee house or open mic) That's not so say it can't be done, it just requires more than an onboard preamp and a cord. It requires clean, flat-response sound systems, high-quality, sophisticated, expensive processing, and most importantly, the expertise to use it. For many people (though I'm not one of them) an acceptable and much cheaper alternative is to compromise the acoustic performance of the guitar in order to get something that will work OK when amplified. |
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Location: NJ | ". . .<>
that is simple because that is all they had orders for.
The guitar was introduced at the Namm show. That is the MAJOR place that guitars are ordered by dealers. It has to impress the dealer before it gets to the public. If the dealers do not order them then you will not see them plain and simple. . ."
Measures 1.5 meters sq. (about 5'x5') by 8' tall.
(CAN be made with a little smaller footprint, but runs the risk of becoming "cramped").
Took about 15 mins. to design/render.
Could be built out of standard components.
Could be built onsite (in-booth) and rented for the duration of the show for about HALF the cost of flying one Marketing schlub out-of-town (not to mention lodging/meals).
. . . . and probably would've sold TWICE as many guitars as said schlub.
Next! . . . . |
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Location: Scotland | Cliff, nice idea, unfortuately a design like that is pretty much useless at sound isolation in a location as noisy as the main hall at Namm. Single panes of glass are about as good as an open window at stopping anything but HF soundwaves, double glazing is only slightly better. Sound isolation requires mass & rigidity, plus the box needs to be airtight which brings it's own set of problems. Taylor & Garrison took their stands a couple of floors up away from the noise of the main hall, which was a little better. Rainsong had a reasonably effective soundproof booth, but it was unbearable after a couple of minutes. |
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Location: NJ | It's not designed for total "isolation". Merely a bit of respite from the din of the show floor to hear yourself "think".
I did something similar a few years ago for Cakewalk and a couple other exhibitors at IMX (Internet Music Expo) in NYC with great success.
It's not designed to be soundPROOF, just a bit of a "quiet spot" within the booth.
"It's better'n nuttin" (which is my understanding about what they opted for). |
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Location: SoCal | At the January NAMN show I tried a FD and couldn't even hear it. An isolation booth of any type would have been appreciated. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | It's all well and good to come up with these ideas of booths and such, and they are quite plentiful at NAMM. Many folks have decent isolation booths, but remember... Ovation Guitars is just one little kerplink in the big bucket of things Kaman sells and at NAMM they are selling KAMAN Music Products... all of them. The vendor they are hoping to attract (assumption here) is one that can handle "the complete line" not just Ovation guitars, or Hamer guitars or LP, or Gretch, or Genz Benz, or Toca, or Takamine. Their focus is to show as many different products as possible in as little space as possible. To make it interesting they have artists sign autographs at an autograph booth, and they have a small stage set up for Matt Smith and friends.
Based on what I have seen there, I would like to see Kaman use a better format for the stage they set up for Matt and guests to play and the Celeb autograph station. I think if they combined those two small areas, to a more formal "stage" they could showcase more of the product line.
Keep in mind a LARGE number of the buyers are NOT musicians, or if they are, they only play one instrument and it may not be a guitar. Sure some do play, but most do not. They own stores, or worse, are just the guy or gal that buys for the store. Hearing the instrument means nothing to them. I know one of the largest Ovation distributers on the east coast, and I also know he knows a couple of "demo" riffs on guitar, that's all the guitar he plays... just enough to show a riff to a potential customer.
I still say, if enough customers asked for a certain guitar or any musical instrument often enough, the store would carry it, it's that simple.
Now I can feel the flames getting warm, but I have to ask this. Of this focused group of about 1500 avid Ovation fans we have here, how many have bought or attempted at least to buy an Elite T, Folklore Deluxe, or Acoustic Only Adamas? I added "attempted to buy" because of the limited number, of the Folklore making it difficult to buy if you wanted one. All THREE of these guitars are available LARGELY BECAUSE WE ASKED FOR THEM!!!!
Remember, these guitars came about when there were less than 1000 of us, closer to only 500 of us. I am not suggesting we all go out and buy new guitars. That is NOT my point. My point is that we are large enough now to represent the "buying community" and although I didn't agree at the begining, is seems Kaman knows exactly what they can sell. I think they can sell more, and I think there is an audience for a high-end (cost wise) guitars again from Ovation, but... they are doing fine without them, so maybe they should only bring out the "big kahuna" guitar when they need to and they don't "need" to yet.
People have inferred in posts about the future of Ovation... well it looks quite bright from a buisness sence. They are selling more product than ever, employing many fine folks in CT and I would guess the bottom line is growing nicely. They even make guitars based on the suggestions of a 'lil 'ol Fan Club, even when few of the folks who made the suggestions buy them. |
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Location: NJ | My point exactly, Paul!
You've had the opportunity to experience that particular guitar at both ends of the spectrum.
Had you been a dealer, would you've ordered it "sight unheard" right then and there? (Personally, I don't find the guitar visually "exciting", so I can see why most dealers panned it.) If you're attempting to regain some lost ground on a model who's strongest suit is it's natural acoustic SOUND, at least have provisions to let potential customers HEAR it! Some may argue ". . Well, Martin and/or Taylor didn't have 'listening rooms' . . ".
Fine. They're riding on the name and popularity that they have NOW, not the popularity that they had THEN!
Sorry guys, but the days of just "showing up" and watching the stuff fly off the shelves are LONG gone! Get out and SELL something!! |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Taylor (I think it was Taylor) has a freaking niteclub/lounge setup. A stage that has non-stop artists from every corner of the spectrum, and a room with couches, peanuts and M&M's where you can just pick out a guitar and sit and noodle... but... Talyor or Martin mostly only sells guitars... so they can focus on that. By the way, the Fender area is much worse than the Kaman area. They are usually enclosed and have all their lines in one slightly partitioned room. You can barely speak let alone hear something play. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Personally, I'm just thrilled that my little post and a few pictures of Pauls visit generated so many responses ... including artist renderings. Dave |
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Location: NJ | That's what you get for posting pics of "a coupla' troublemakers". |
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Location: SoCal | I am not a "troublemaker". It just finds me.
But Cliff, you are 100% on track. At NAMM, the FD looked like a nice guitar. But I couldn't hear the sound. To sit down and play it and hear it, a whole different impression comes up. |
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Meeting Of The Devoted
