|
|
Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 1445
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada | Having recently decided to try some recording on my computer, I bid on a Creative Soundblaster Audigy 2 Platinum soundcard with front accessible control panel, that was on Ebay. I paid through Paypal and after waiting for a considerable time for it so show up, I contacted two other bidders who won identical cards from the same seller on the same day. They had not received anything either. That of course put the red flag up and after getting the contact info from Ebay, I called the seller to find out what's up. When I didn't get a satisfactory response I demanded my money back.
He agreed to refund my money through Paypal, which he did (minus the $17.50 shipping). This was about three weeks ago. Then today I get an email stating the payment has been reversed pending the resolving of a dispute between us. Now here’s the good part; he has the audacity to file a complaint with Paypal stating that I had not sent goods I had sold him. By following the links on Paypal my only options seem to be either: 1) pay him the money again, or 2) send a tracking number proving that I had sent something to him. There doesn’t seem to be any avenue in which to counter-complain. Failing this, Paypal will debit my credit card to pay this scumbag off.
Anyone have any suggestions?
Wayne |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15676
Location: SoCal | Wayne:
I feel for you. The only negative feedback that I ever received on ebay was when I didn't get something I paid for (with paypal) and raised a stink. I found out that paypal is not nearly as friendly as people think it is. I still use it, but I now understand that if I get screwed, they aren't going to help. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7232
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Call the folks at PayPal. YOu need to dig for the number as I recall, but I found them very helpful the two times I needed to talk them in the past few years. You have to attempt to look up the info you need in the FAQ but then it gives the option to "call support." THey were friendly and knowledgeable and straightened everything out. As they are part of Ebay, they can lookup and see you are the buyer, not the seller. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2003
Posts: 18
Location: blkyn usa | I feel your pain. I try to avoid using paypal, and use my credit card. I found amex defends me the best. In any event, back to your case, it's time to go into letter writing mode. With one letter to the consumer affairs office of the attorney general's office of your home state (or provence), describe what happened and what result you want, and that you expect that the letter will serve notice on the parties listed below of your demands and you expect them to take action on this complaint as well. After all you are the person whose been scammed. The people to cc are ebay, pay pal, the scum, the credit card company, the better business bureau of where you live and where the scum lives or works, the consumer affairs division of the state attorney general where the scum lives and the consumer affairs office of your respective cities, might as well throw in the state where pay pal is located into the mix and may be registered to do business in your state or provence. Be firm with your credit card company and tell them they're working for you and are supposed to protect you, not the punk (i should stop calling him names, but i've experienced this with internet purchases and it burns me up. People think they are so far away that you won't bother to do anything) Also, ebay and paypal should want to do something to protect it's users. Already, on this board I suspect there are 1600 people who will only use paypal if they have no choice, and grimace when they do it. Also, I would demand that he waive the shipping on something I didn't receive. Anyhow, that's how I'd start. I think this'll work. remember the sqeaky wheel gets the grease. If it doesn't work sue him in small claims court. Only problem is where does he live because depending on the state you might not be able to get jurisdiction so you might have to go to his state, or the state where ebay or pay pal are located, unless they are registered to do business where you live, or if your state/provence has special jurisdictional laws, then you can get him where you live. Ah man, i'm sorry for you. Good luck. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7232
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Call the folks at PayPal. YOu need to dig for the number as I recall, but I found them very helpful the two times I needed to talk them in the past few years. You have to attempt to look up the info you need in the FAQ but then it gives the option to "call support." THey were friendly and knowledgeable and straightened everything out. As they are part of Ebay, they can lookup and see you are the buyer, not the seller. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 1445
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada | Miles, I did call Paypal but couldn't find a way to talk to a humanoid...just a automated menu which basically reitterated everything that was already in the FAQ section. Perhaps I missed something.
Wayne |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7232
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I try to find the number I called. It may be that there are only real people during normal biz hours during the week. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 3005
Location: Las Cruces, NM | Didn't I read somewhere recently that Ebay bought Paypal, You might be able to complain to Ebay, I sure believe your story and I would think they might also.
Bailey |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7232
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | an43402,
I prefer Paypal. I use it anytime I can. The couple of issues I have had, in the long run, I'm glad they did what they did as it protected me. I am sure, once they are contacted, the "scum" will no longer have an eBay account either. It's certainly easy enough to see who was the buyer and who was the seller. Sounds like someone just checked the wrong box, either by accident or on purpose. Either way, PayPal will make it straight. if that is the case.
The number was easier to find than I remember...
PayPal Customer Service Agents are available to help you 7 days a week, from 6 A.M. to midnight CST. 1.888.221.1161
Good Luck |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 1445
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada | Thanks Miles, I'll try again today. I too, like the convenience of Paypal. It just totally irks me that he is able to debit my account so easily, with no record of me having bought anything from him.
His Ebay account has already become non-registered, probably due to similar problems with others. I'll let you know how I make out.
Wayne |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10583
Location: NJ | I have credit card service via my business. I have had it long before pay pal was in existence or was even concieved. As a result I don't accept pay pal because it casues me more paperwork and antoher fee that I already pay for the priviledge of accepting credit cards. IMHO This service allows individuals that would NO WAY IN HELL be approved to accept credit cards accept them with little to no consequence.
As a result my business suffers. When I first started doing mail order, I was considered ligitimate because I accepted credit cards since I don't accept pay pal some feel my business is suspect.
My favortie response is someone tells me that they do not feel comfortable giving their credit card over the phone, or that they do not want to give out their credit card number. To this I usually answer then why have a credit card if you don't want to use it? If you call any major credit mail order company, then you will have to give the credit card number over the phone and most people do it with no issues. If you go to a gas station you will hand you card to some "grease monkey" with no problems or if you are at a restaurant some 18 year old bim with her hooters half hanging out will ask for your card and you will give it to her without a doubt. BUT a legitimate business has to jump through hoops to get a credit card number to sell an item. somehow I just don't get it.
Now there are tons of scams out there. Please send my item via the USPS and don't insure it. So if you do that and the person claims they did not get an item calls the CC company they will ask the seller for proof of delivery with the USPS unless you pay for it there is none so the seller is out the cost of the item if it is disputed on the charge.
The same goes if the seller claims something does not work or was broken in transit and substitutes parts or the item you as seller have no way to fight the cc company's dispute.
For the amount of shady sellers there are there are twice as many shady buyers. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2003
Posts: 299
Location: Netherlands | Al,
I experienced your answer personally and based on your positive feedback on ebay and the OFC board decided to buy from you using my CC.
Even so, I don't feel comfortable using my CC over the internet. This has nothing to do with questioning of the seller's business being legitimate or not, merely with the openness of internet. It's quite easy to intercept mail with someones CC number in it. Also, suppose a seller stores my CC number on his or her computer and forgets to delete it and has his computer hacked (a friend of mine only did an internet search, no hacking and found a company near his house with literally hundreds of CC numbers because there was NO firewall installed, stupid but true).
This would mean my cc number is out on the street. (Applies to the gas station as well, I know).
I do use paypal now and again because they handle the transaction and they are supposed to be a trustworthy company. Then again, based on the above story, i may reconsider.
I suppose the bad guys make internet a true PayHell ( :D ) for the good guys, as always.
I think it's everybody's right to ask about what's going to happen with their money or how a transaction will happen or if it's safe if they don't have enough experience with the payment method, as much as it's their right to ask questions about the item sold.
BTW: did you manage to post the guitar?
Martin |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10583
Location: NJ | Martin it went out last monday |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2003
Posts: 299
Location: Netherlands | Thnx.
Martin. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 1445
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada | Very good "points", Al, especially the hooters... :rolleyes:
I was able to get hold of Paypal this morning (thanks for the toll-free, Miles, they sure don't post that were everyone can see it!). As per the lady's instructions, I laid out the facts, auction #, reference #'s etc., and emailed them to the appropriate address. Hopefully, there will be some resolution soon.
The guy was very clever, making sure he sent my refund as an "auction purchase payment" therefore was able to claim "non-receipt of item" to get a reversal. However, when he has to show Paypal the webpage of his alleged purchase as proof, which should be his downfall, as there is none. At the time, I was just so happy to get my money back I wasn’t concerned about the details. It is a lesson learned, though.
Wayne |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | ". . . at a restaurant some 18 year old bim with her hooters half hanging out . . ."
So Al, I wasn't the ONLY one paying attention at that Italian joint by your house!! ;) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10583
Location: NJ | And Cliff you did not hesitate to hand her your credit card...
It just proves my theory that if we are suspect we should be suspect of all not just selectively. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7232
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | This is a little off-topic.. but not much..
"It's quite easy to intercept mail with someones CC number in it" Is actually a common false statement.
You really really have to know what you are doing and pretty much do it from an ISP as an employee. Also the risk is that if caught this is a Federal crime. Also due to the amount of eMail, it's actually much more fruitful to just hang out at the back of a resturant or bar at closing and get copies from the trash, as most don't shred. You'll collect more and you can't be traced.
Many places surprisingly only check the legitamcy of the card, not the owner or the balance. There are places on the web to acquire credit card numbers that will work. If any verification is done, they won't, but there are also lists of stores onlne that don't verify. Suprisingly it's the bigger buisnesses that don't verify more often than the mom/pop places. A lot of the places where you click and it almost immediatly sais "thanks for the order". I assume most of these have upgraded since receiving this info about two years ago, but it would not surprise me if some never bothered.
Email doesn't travel the internet in "one piece" like a piece of paper either, but a lesson in TCP/IP protocols would burn too many brain cells.
Just as a tip, if you submit credit card info in a browser, insure it is secured also, with the little lock at the bottom of the browser being locked.
Sheeesh... I'm getting old. I remember founding the Computer Security Office at a particular national govt security agency during my career back in 1983. That was 20 years ago... :(
T W E N T Y mother-of-blue-Ovations years ago. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 35
Location: Reading, PA | Paypal, I wrote an Epinion on them entitled 'playfoul'. I purchased something for my VW from a guy and when the item appeared it was grossly misrepresented to wit a small bullit hole in a 'perfectly good headlight'. He pretty much flipped me off when I offered to return his goods and shipping charges. After about a month waiting for the playfoul investigation(yeah right), I contacted my credit card company. They looked at about 14 pages of email between playfoul, the sleazy seller and myself and reversed the charges. The sleaze was in shock to find the cash had been retracted from his sleazy pocket. Playfoul sent me a dumb email claiming I violated the user agreement and said something about I wouldn't be allowed to swing on the monkey bars at recess. I dislike those people.
Jim |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | I use paypal under protest because some US buyers have a problem talking to their bank & organising an IMO, cashiers check or wire transfer, which may cost a little more but is arguably safer, and in the unlikely event of a problem you don't have to jump through paypal's hoops or deal with their piss-poor "customer service". Their fees, compared to other online payment providers, particularly on overseas deals, are almost criminal. I buy regularly from the USA and just pick up the phone & instruct my bank to send a certified check in $USD. Paypal are pond life.
www.nopaypal.com
Even though Ebay own paypal they operate independantly & in the event of a dispute with paypal's services ebay will not assist or intervene, they just tell you to go talk to paypal's pathetic customer service |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7232
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | P.T.
The fees for PayPal in the USA are about the lowest you can get. I have heard similar to what you are saying about the overseas fees. Also, as example from my bank, a money tranfer starts at $20.00 and then there are additional fees, and unfortunatly, many banks here just aren't familiar with how to do it.
Much like the money exchange process where you can go into just about any bank large bank in Europe with another currency and exchange it, here, the best bet is an international airport. Even in Washington DC, the banks will likely send you to a travel agency unless you want US currency and the fees are high.
Price of doing buisness I guess. But back to the PayPal topic, the fact is they are actually cutting into the standard credit services buisness as the fees are cheaper and it's easier to set up. If they ever make POS (Point Of Sale) available, the feathers are gonna fly. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2003
Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | Al,
This may be a stupid question but what is your eBay listing name?
I use PayPal when my only other option is the check/money order but support businesses that accept credit cards. I have purchased about $5,500 through eBay in the last 12 months and now it is a deduct from my checking account (over $2,000 lifetime) - sucks. Now, after good service from a seller, I will often call the seller with what I want and order direct (item not listed on eBay). That way, I support those who support me. I love my Ovations, my Martin, and a Les Paul endorsed by Les Paul himself - but I now have four of the archtop hollowbody Tursers - for those and straps, I call direct. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10583
Location: NJ | it is a difficult ebay handle to remember so make sure your write it down
alpep@aol.com |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2003
Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | think I can handle that... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2003
Posts: 299
Location: Netherlands | This thread has cleared up a lot of my initial doubts (and apparently misunderstandings) of trading using CC's over the internet (and somehow provided me with new ones regarding PayPal).
The way I see it now the only way to gain trust in internet business is ordering LOTS of guitars from the US. Now I only have to convince my girl that this is absolutely neccessary, but with the messages in this thread even that should only present minor problems.
Thnx all.
Martin |
|
| |
Paypal ain't no 'pal' of mine!
