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| I feel this got to go together.
First finger nails, mine keep breaking or cracking just when I get them to the length I like. So those the finger pick, how do you keep you nails in shape?
Also for those that finger pick and strum do you usually use the same guitar for both? I notice Ovation sells more for picking. I have to get by with one but, just wondering what others do.
Edward |
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Location: Scotland | Nail care is a pretty deep topic, there'll be as many opinions about this among fingerstyle players as if you'd asked about string preference. I've heard everthing from eating gelatine, using clear nail polish, reinforcing nails with superglue & tissue paper to glueing on pieces of ping-pong balls. Try a google search on something like "nail care for guitarists" and you'll find more information than you'll ever need. Personally I keep my nails short so the string is plucked by a combination of flesh & nail, which I prefer to the tone of nail only. I don't do anything except make sure there's no snags for a string to get under and tear the nail. Unless I do more than 3 shows in a row my nails hold up pretty well. If I'm really stuck I'll buy women's false nails from a drugstore. That can get you into trouble depending on the kind of gigs you play, especially if you paint'em red.
I don't agree that Ovations or any other guitars are suited to a particular style. The guitar is just a means of expression, it's down to the player, not the instrument. I personally prefer wider necks for fingerstyle playing and my '78 Adamas & Custom Folklore have Ovation's wide neck, but I can live with the standard width on my other guitars. |
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Location: Central Oregon | Originally posted by Paul Templeman:
I don't agree that Ovations or any other guitars are suited to a particular style. The guitar is just a means of expression, it's down to the player, not the instrument.
I don't know Paul, I don't think anything less sturdy than an Adamas would hold up to Kaki King's style.
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Posts: 255
| I use a pair of dykes to cut them and I shape them with the wide side of a fret radiusing file. LOL dont have nail care products at work. file the nail toward the tip and not back and forth. Think of your nail as a 1000 strands of hair stuck together growing straight out. Sand with the grain not against it. At least I was told this from a classical player.
Oh one other thing. I find that people let them grow too long thinking that is thwe way. They realy dont have to be that long. The best tone I think is skin and nail combined. You get a wider range of tone when you can use both. I dont do this but Andre Sagovias nails looked like claws. Really pointy at the tip. Everybody has their own technique though. |
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Location: Scotland | Nils, you may be right about a style as unique as Kaki King's or Preston Reed's, (though Michael Hedges did something very similar with a D28 for much of his career) but the original post was in reference to neck width. |
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Posts: 181
Location: North Carolina | As somebody who slaps, slams, taps, picks, and strums a Custom Elite as hard as anybody, I can assure you that a wood-topped Ovation is more than up to the task of holding up!
Franklin |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | If you want to play flamenco on a telecaster you can. If you want to play a nylon string with a pick you can. It really is up to you and what you feel comfortable with, whatever gets your groove on.
As for nail length, I generally use a flat pick, but when I use my fingers I only use my thumbnail, which is just a bit past the flesh on my thumb, and I use the flesh on my fingertips which have callouses. So having a short thumbnail and not using fingernails elimates the problem. Other people use banjo picks on their thumbs, and these claw kinda things on their finger tips. You just have to experiment to see what's right for you. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | When I started playing I always played without a pick. I didn't have exposure to other musicians to I just started trying to play what I heard on the radio and records and never thought much about it. I did this on my S&H Greenstamps Acoustic and my Tiesco 4-pickup gawdy electric. After a few years, I started "lessons" (they were short lived" but they got me playing with a pick 'cause that was the "right" way. Many years later I saw Lindsey Buckingham and Mark Knopfler etc... playing electrics without picks. I was devastated. To this day I feel the frustration, because of all those years FORCING myself to use a pick, when in fact I can play faster and better witout one, or at least I could if I had the time to practice again.
I feel a little robbed that I listened to some moron just because he was supposed to know what he was talking about, when in fact I should have been doing what felt most comfortable and what I did best, and THAT is my point.
Sometimes we learn parents and teachers, although mostly well meaning, are only human.... a little too late. |
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Location: Central Oregon | Originally posted by iconocoustica:
As somebody who slaps, slams, taps, picks, and strums a Custom Elite as hard as anybody, I can assure you that a wood-topped Ovation is more than up to the task of holding up!
Franklin
As a relatively new owner of an Elite that's good to know! :)
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Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | Miles-
Funny you bring that up...
I have an extremely dedicated adult student who is so passionate about learning guitar. Her first teacher, as far as I can tell, was very negligent in teaching her some very important rudimentary things in the last 2 years.
One of the things that has been a "lil' issue" for us is that she doesn't like using a pick. It's not that she wants to play fingerstyle...she wants to play rock songs on acoustic. She prefers the flesh of her hand to a pick, but as I see it, she can't play well that way, and it ultimately doesn't produce the attack required to create the sound she wants.
I don't want to squash her individualism with her approach to the instrument (as it seems to have happened to you), but I also think that it's fear and initial 'uncomfortableness' with using the pick that has created this preference.
I have her practice songs both ways (with and without a pick), and hope that is the way to go. I know she mostly practices without a pick. My hope is that one day she will just say "ok, John, listen, I CAN play better without a pick, so that's what I'm gonna do" or "For some things a pick is more effective, so I'm glad I've practiced using one so I can use it comfortably".
My thought is that there are indeed brilliant rock players who don't use a pick, no doubt. Sometimes that came as a result of unorthodox learning, sometimes simply preference. But I think as a teacher I have a responsibility to expose her to the technique of using a pick, so she can at least make an educated decision about breaking the "rules". On the flip side, many new players don't like practicing fingerpicking after having become used to flatpicking-but it's still a worthwhile skill to have in your arsenal of techniques.
I understand and respect your perspective, very much so. It seems as though it would be like having been forced to write with your right hand (as they did years ago in Catholic Schools) when you are a lefty. You miss out on all that creative expression that is "naturally you ".
I also understand it is also most effective to use the right tool/technique for the job. You wouldn't paint a house with a toothbrush (though you technically could)-unless you were striving for a particular effect, or you didn't know how to use a larger brush.
Johnny |
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Location: SoCal | John: This is an interesting discussion. All I can say is look at Mark Knoffler and others like him and point your student in that direction. Our own Paul T plays without a pick and is not half bad for a hack (I tried to show him as much as I could while he was out here, but I couldn't get him to go with a pick either!).
There are a lotta good players in rock who don't use picks (Lindsey Buckingham for another example). |
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Location: Austin, Tx | Paul is right about nail care being a deep subject. The problem is that no one really has the answer that works for everyone.
I study classical guitar, and the two instructors I've had did not give me clear cut instructions on nail care except shape. Everyone eventually figures things out through trial and error.
That said, I'll now try to save you from that trial and error. I have weak brittle nails as well, and the solution was not ping pong balls.
Go to a nail salon and get acrylic nails. Specifically solar nails. you only need to do the thumb, index, middle, and ring fingers. You might need tips to start out with, but after a few fills your own nails should be long enough. Just tell them you play guitar, a lot of them have done nails for guitarists before. Check out Scott Tennants book called Pumping Nylon in your local music store. It has a guide to nail length and shape. I suggest an angle from the left to right so the string slides across most of the nail like a ramp. This also lets you keep them short. Looking at the palm side of your hand, the nails should protrude 1/16th to 1/8th inch away from your fingertips.
You can also check out Michael Chapdelaine's guide to great tone. He's the classical guitar professor at UNM in Albuquerque. Michael Chapdelaine
As far as one Guitar, you have to choose the guitar thats right for you, but one ovation guitar will work for all styles of music, the standard neck is easier for most people to play.
I play Fingerstyle, as well as flatpick on my two ovations.
Legend 1866 12 string
Artist Balladeer 1617 6 string |
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Location: Scotland | Just to clarify something Paul M mentioned, I play fingerstyle without picks, in fact when I used to play banjo & pedal steel I played without picks, which is "wrong" and I still play Lap Steel pickless, but if I'm playing a strummed rhythm part I always use a flatpick (the stiffest I can find)
Dan, I know several players who use acryllic nails & swear by them |
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Location: SoCal | The only thing to watch for with acylics (and I know this from my wife's experience), is that if you use them for long periods of time and then decide to get rid of them, you end up with very thin real nails. It then takes time to get your real nails back up to speed. |
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Location: Scotland | Paul, that's true, not just of acrylic nails, but of any kind of "stick-on" assistance. I used the tissue-paper & superglue method for years till I realised it was actually weakening the natural nail.
I remember reading a Chet Atkins interwiew in Frets magazine where he talked about using some kind of product intended for horses hooves to strengthen his nails |
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Location: Austin, Tx | Edward's nails are not up to speed right now. That's the problem with having thin nails and trying to play fingerstyle, you either find a method to strengthen your nails or play with your fingertips. |
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Location: Yucaipa, California | Hey Edward!
Check these out!!! I have been using Alaska Piks for about 1-year and they are awesome! I fingerpick my Balladeers (12&6) using the old "Scruggs Style" Banjo fingering- thumb, index and middle fingers. The Alaska Piks have solved that problem of soft nails vs steel strings! I use the Large on the middle finger, medium on the index finger and a National thumbpick. I also use the Brass Alaska Piks with my 6-string banjo!
here's the site: http://www.alaskapik.com
they are waaaaay cool! |
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Location: Scotland | There's also the Fingertone picks, which are similar in concept to the Alaska piks, in that there are a pick which allow some flesh to contact the string. I've tried both but didn't get on with either.
http://www.guptillmusic.com/propik/fingertone.html |
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Location: Yucaipa, California | The Alaska Piks do take some personalizing, (trimming and filing to your preferences) but once that's done they really work well (for me). Picking and Strumming are effortless and very natural.... For years I used only the thumbpick and fingernails (even when playing my Les Paul Custom and had constant worries about broken nails, etc... I tried the "salon nails" and other glue-on tricks, but to me the Alaska Piks are the way to go... try them for a week and see...
(no, I'm not a paid endorser)! |
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| Thank you, everyone for the ideas.
I'm going to go at this 3 or 4 steps.
1: Try some nail conditioner
2: Hunt down "Pumping Nylon" either video or book. If I can't find it around town, I'll order it.
3: Spend more time, filing and shaping my nails.
4: If the above do not work try alaskapiks.
I think the filing in different directions and not getting my nails completely smooth is one of my big mistakes. So this probably 1A on the list.
Thanks again everyone
Edward |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Wow this conversation has taken some turns.. :) I like that... Anyway..
Strummin12, I agree with everything you said except for one line, but I get the picture. There seems to be this myth that the "right" way to play rock is with a pick and I disagree. I believe it is the most popular, most common, but a pick is just another way. I have seen Lindsey Buckingham play and without a pick, he manages to nail some pretty nasty leads that "sound" picked. I do see a need for a pick sometimes, and I'm glad I can play with a pick on those times. I also hold the pick verticle to the strings, not parallel like so many teach. I do agree that you should encourage your student to do both. If she wants to throw away all the rules, that is her choice, but she's coming to you to learn the options.
I get a kick that Paul T and I do things polar opposite sometimes. It must be the accent. When I play rhythm is usually when I toss the pick. I actually did that as schtick in the 80's. I can get such huge fat chords using all of my fingers at once at a kindof angle on the strings. since this conversation started I have been noodling (when not typing) and noticed I vary the fingers I use depending on the chord and where I'm playing it, so I guess that gives it the "big" sound. I also do this "down with middle finger, up with thumb thing" and variations therof that make some sounds that I didn't realize how cool they were until I just started listening to them.
I guess the bottom line is that sometimes, bad habits practiced long enough become styles. |
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Location: Minneapolis, MN | I just read somewhere that Wes Montgomery developed his fingerstyle playing because his wife thought he was too loud using a pick...
I wonder if there are any dietary changes you can make to increases the strength and/or stiffness of your fingernails...
My sister once regaled me with a tale of how her husband's fingernails were thick as heck and hard as stone. I asked why she thought that was, and she told me that when he eats meat, he leaves absolutely nothing on the bone- picks it clean. I always thought she was pulling my leg... could there be some truth to it? Food for thought (sorry for the pun).... :o |
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| i have this product called "nailtiques" nail protein formula 2. its for strenthening your nails and thickening it. its like a clear coat for your nails. its for soft, peeling, bitten, weak or thin nails. a bit costly for such a small bottle, but its worth it. try it, it might work. |
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Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | Miles-
"There seems to be this myth that the "right" way to play rock is with a pick and I disagree"
I wish I had made myself clearer because I didn't mean that there was a "right" way to play rock. Individualism in music is among the greatest aspects of it! Hell, Jimi played with his teeth! Like I said, I KNOW there are many BRILLIANT rock players who don't play with a pick-Buckingham, Knopfler, etc.
What I meant to imply was that, as guitarists, we have "sounds" in our heads, and they need to be expressed. If that' sound comes from the flesh of your fingers, or a piece of plastic, a violin bow, or your teeth so be it. But there are common ways to go about achieving that sound. You could play classical guitar with a pick, but it would be really tough. Is it wrong to suggest the most conventional way as a starting point?
When teaching someone guitar I think I need to do my best to help a student assess where they want to take their music and help them get there, while keeping their individual expression. Exposure to different techniques & tools is essential, as I see it. Conventionally, a pick is most often used when playing rock guitar. I don't believe it's the only or right way (I myself use my fingers at times, or a hybrid technique, it depends on what I hear is called for) and would not suggest that it is. But, I think it would be an injustice to allow a student to avoid using a pick out of his/her fear of it, especially if their current technique is not working well for them. Learn some good technique, then go ahead and break all the rules, but just don't be afraid of them. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Strummin12, I figured that's what you meant based on everything else you wrote. I just wrote it off to a fruedient slip :) |
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Finger nails and neck sizes
