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Location: Florida | They say A stock, perfect condition. Why then marked refurb... whats the deal? |
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November 2003
Posts: 100
Location: Warren, OH | Supposedly the guitars are in prime condition but are being sold because they are 2003 models. In addition, the warranty is reduced from limited lifetime to limited 5 years.
MF is not the only vendor to be selling them if you look on e-bay. Acoustic Axis was selling them for approx $800 (buy it now), Victor Litz Music had them for approx $850 (buy it now), and I saw Music Value selling them (less case) for about $575 (when the auction ended). |
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Posts: 6197
Location: Phoenix AZ | The interesting thing to me is that I never saw this kind of activity with any previous years collectors guitars. What's up with the 2003's? I mean, HOW can you even DARE call it a collector when there are so many of them out there and such a large number of them are not 1st quality? The market seems to be absolutely flooded with these referb 2003's, B-stocks, whatever you want to call them. Does anyone know why? I'm guessing either a) Ovation made a ton of these things, b) Big quality problems hence the large number of referbs, or c) Drastic change in the distribution scheme by Kaman. The large number of these referbs on the market definately gives Ovation a black eye and just fuels the fire of all those anti-Ovation bigots out there. I know there are people on this board that have 2003's, first quality, and they love them - That's great and that's the way they should ALL be. Was it planned all along that the 300 unit Custom Legend Anniversary guitar would be the defacto 2004 collector, or did someone say "Holy Shit, we better close the flood gates until we figure what the hell went wrong with the 2003's" ???? Dave |
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Posts: 420
Location: On the beach in Southwest Florida | Makes you wonder what's really wrong with the 2003's. Does anyone own one that can give us a clue? |
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Posts: 10582
Location: NJ | nothing is wrong with the 03 guitars. They play well and sound great.
If you buy an FRG you are getting a bargain with one of these.
why is it even when people get good deals they can't even accept that? they need to analyze why they got a good deal or if the deal is even valid.
btw I don't speak for Ovation I speak for myself |
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December 2003
Posts: 13987
Location: Upper Left USA | When I was "shopping around" I went back to my local Ted Brown to play a 2003 Collector on 3 occasions. IMNSHO - It is a very nice guitar. The one piece inlaid epaulets really caught my eye and were a very practicle feature.
To me it seems like more of a transitional model than a Collector. |
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Posts: 1817
Location: Minden, Nebraska | My 2003 Collectors' arrived with a preamp problem for which I contacted Kim Keller. He told me that there had been a number of 2003 guitars in which the preamp can had not been hooked up properly. It turned out to be a very easy five minute fix.
It is possible that some of these guitars were returned by dealers to the factory to get them right. That makes them FRG by definition, I think.
And Al is right; the deals on these are killer prices for a superb guitar. |
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Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | ". . . the one piece inlaid epaulets really caught my eye and were a very practicle feature. . ."
Since this guitar came out, this is the fourth or fifth time someone made a statement similar to this. Can someone please explain to me what they're seeing that I obviously am not?
The advent of the epaulettes came with the very first Adamas models and (along with the multi-soundholes) made the appearance of the guitar quite striking. Those early epaulettes were quite a piece of craftsmanship. Many separate pieces of different kinds of exotic woods assembled with meticulous detail to convey a very specific design element.
Over the years, they've somewhat "denegrated" in design as they've appeared on everything from the high-end Adamases to the Celebrity imports. Along the way, costs and logistics have caused the feature to be changed/simplified in design as far as materials and execution to the point that it doesn't look a whole hell of a lot like what it started out as. Granted, I know it's been a span of almost 30 years and "things change", but if you're gonna convey something in a design element, either convey it accurately (or at least "stylishly") or leave it off. I've long felt that the epaulettes have somewhat outlived their usefullness and the multi-hole design would be better served by a different treatment (binding, purfling, or a concentric inlaid "ring" around each soundhole of an exotic wood or abalone/MOP).
The original Adamas epaulette was designed to convey a cluster of grape leaves. If you printed the '03 one on paper and showed it to 100 different people and asked what it was, it'd be more varied than a Rorscharch Test. Yes, the inlay is a REALLY nice feature, I love inlay. I also love the look of the figured walnut. But IMHO, they took the cheapest and easiest way out to produce a design element that deserves better.
To me, it looks like a "shotgun wound". :rolleyes:
Sorry for the "rant" but that's what this is all about, isn't it?
btw: To me, the Melissa Etheridge white epaulettes looks like somebody blew a seal
(". . no! i was just eating ice cream! . . ") :D |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Cliff, my brother!!! THANK YOU!!!
I too like the new epauladies, and I love the technology that allows them to be inlayed with such finese' that when I first saw them from a distance I thought they were decals, but I totally agree with you that the original idea is now almost lost. I also have some other concerns in no particular order.
The original epaulets were many pieces, 16 I think. Then they went to about 8. I wonder if at 16 pieces the top still flexed as it should and maybe the 8 piece was stiffer causing the top to not flex? Is there a one piece inlay that would be even worse.
While on the topic, based on previous discussions, the holes themselves were there for the Graphite top to move easier based on the bracing and that wood tops really lent themselves to a center hole. Now aesthetically, I like the leaves, but I just wonder if now it's just a case of "we do it, cause we always did it" and if so, then back to your point... which is... the original point was lost. |
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Posts: 6197
Location: Phoenix AZ | Holy Cow! So many tempting comments to respond to. I love a good debate.
Al - I'm not complaining that you can get an FRG '03 at a good price. That's great for the consumer. It's just odd to me that I've seen literally dozens of FRG '03's for sale but have never, ever seen a single FRG of any other year collector. Just an interesting observation, that's all.
Miles and Cliff - I think the inlaid epaulets of the '03 look great up close and I do appreciate the precision to make them that way. But from more than 5 feet away they look like a cheap sticker. Someone told me they thought it was a protective plastic cover that you took off once you got the guitar home from the dealer, like the plastic cover on the little display on your DVD player or something. NOTHING is as nice as the original Adamas epaulets, although my Stealth Adamas with no epaulates comes close.
Cliff - You make it so easy. When was the last time you blew a seal? No disrespect intended to our native american eskimo brothers. One thing we do agree on - the white ME is the worst looking Ovation I have ever seen. Please give me a purple Celebrity any day.
Dave |
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Posts: 13987
Location: Upper Left USA | Two confessions and a clarification:
I've never seen/touched the early Adamis so I didn't have a reference. Pure ignorance on my part.
I had to have someone tell me those were "Oak Leaves".
What I like about the LX is that the finish of the top is over the epaulets (epaladies?)providing nothing to catch or snag and enhancing the beauty of the wood inlaid to the top. In Samova's gallery there is a proto model with the soundholes surrounded by rosettes.
I think Ovation USA should re-consider the epaulet shape and using inset garnishments there would be a tremendous opportunity to craft a gorgeous looking instrument. I'd like to see the Elite go to holes similar to the Elite T's with inset exotic woods and MOP around the holes. |
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Posts: 15664
Location: SoCal | Two comments on this thread. First, Cliff, have you really blown a seal (take that as you will)? And Dave, I agree 100%. The ME is as ugly as ugly can be. |
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Posts: 80
Location: Tampa, FL | I hope my posting isn't untimely. I have had the 2003 Collectors' Edition for a while now, and I like it a lot.
When I was shopping for one of the refurbs a couple months ago, I spoke with a dealer who didn't have one and couldn't find one. So, figuring he would be forthcoming, I asked why the Big O would be releasing these as refurbs.
He explained there were some pre-amp problems with the earlier inventory 2003 releases, but this newer inventory needed to be labeled as refurbished because of the contracts with their retailers. Ovation needed to unload their inventory, but Ovation would upset dealers who still had inventory that wasn't a refurb if they sold it now for less than the dealers paid. So, Ovation had to call the latter 2003 inventory refurbs. The rub is they only come with a 5 year warranty. I haven't had any problems with mine though.
HTH if someone is considering buying a used one down the road.
Regards,
Mark |
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November 2002
Posts: 1300
Location: Madison, Wisconsin | I think Ovation USA should re-consider the epaulet shape
Maybe they could try little blue surfboards. That might catch some eyes. |
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Posts: 396
| Originally posted by aceboympk:
I hope my posting isn't untimely. I have had the 2003 Collectors' Edition for a while now, and I like it a lot.
When I was shopping for one of the refurbs a couple months ago, I spoke with a dealer who didn't have one and couldn't find one. So, figuring he would be forthcoming, I asked why the Big O would be releasing these as refurbs.
He explained there were some pre-amp problems with the earlier inventory 2003 releases, but this newer inventory needed to be labeled as refurbished because of the contracts with their retailers. Ovation needed to unload their inventory, but Ovation would upset dealers who still had inventory that wasn't a refurb if they sold it now for less than the dealers paid. So, Ovation had to call the latter 2003 inventory refurbs. The rub is they only come with a 5 year warranty. I haven't had any problems with mine though.
HTH if someone is considering buying a used one down the road.
Regards,
Mark
Long story, short... ordered one, wasn't advertised as refurb, guitar in excellent condition, sounded great, sent it back.
I was told that same story about how they weren't really refurbs/they had to blow them out of the warehouse at bargain prices/so they had to offer at bottom prices/they couldn't do this without stamping refurb on brand new/perfect condition guitars.
The guitar I received in Early January was marked refurb with a serial number in the 200s. So, I never bought the story for a second. If the story were true, shame on Ovation. To stamp refurb on perfect condition/new guitars so you can price slash/violate your own pricing policy screws every dealer who has previously bought them to sell, as well as every customer who has purchased one previously. The street price on that model was 1300-1500. If they stamped refurb on perfect guitars that had no history of any problems so they could sell at 800-1000 street, they just stuck it to every customer who had previously purchased one. A few members have stated in past posts that their were minor problems (such as electrical) that were repaired and then sent out as refurbs. For 800-1000, it's a good refurb deal if minor problems were repaired. If not, it represents an unethical business practice in my opinion. Of course, I could be wrong. |
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Posts: 43
| I have had the 2003 Collector since late 2002. Mine has worked flawlessly, as all of my other Ovations. I also have a problem with Ovations new marketing on several levels. I have been paying premium prices for premium Ovation guitars, namely, the Collectors series. It is money well spent, but part of the premium price is the fact that Ovation markets them as a "Limited Edition" guitar of the highest quality. I am willing to pay the extra for a guitar that is rarer and top quality. Putting out refurbished guitars cheapens the marketing that Ovation stands on. I know of no other guitar manufacturer that pulls this kind of stunt with their limited edition guitars. Also, Ovations has touted their Collectors series for years as the guitar that you can collect a new one year after year. They proudly show them on their website in their own little area. Now they decide to drop all the people that have been loyal to their company and their Collector products for no apparent reason. No explanation, not a hint of their goal on the website. The 30th Legend is NOT!!!! the 2004 Collector. It is a 30th Anniversary Legend. Just like the 25th anniversary model is not a Collector Series guitar. A Collector Series is marketed as a Collectors Series guitars, not another Ovation guitar that an Ovation Collector might like to buy. Ovation needs to get on the ball, listen to the people that have been supporting them and buying their freakin' guitars, and fix the lame website. The site is nothing more that a marketing stop. They need to give us something to be proud of. We need to know that they are thinking of their loyal users, and not just the bottom line.
Rant mode off
Mike Overacker
www.ovationcollector.com
2003 Collector
2002 Collector
2001 Collector
2000 Collector
1999 Collector
1998 Collector
1992 Collector
1992 Collector Brownburst
1986 Collector
1986 Collector
1984 Collector
1983 Collector
2001 Celebrity Doubleneck
2000 Celebrity Collector
1999 Ovation Longneck
1982 Balladeer 12 String
Ovation Breadwinner |
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Posts: 6197
Location: Phoenix AZ | I think it's high time for Ovation kill the concept of an annual Collector Series guitar. Just introduce nice limited editions when and if the timing is right. But make them something really special, not just a new color or pre-amp or something lame like that. There have been a few really nice models of the Collectors Series over the years. But some of the others are just a new dress on the same old whore. Just my opinion, as usual. Dave |
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Posts: 43
| I beg to differ. I have played most all of the Collectors series guitars, and I own alot of them. They are a different from each other as you can get and still look like an Ovation. They are distinct in their own way. That is why I collect them. That is why I have 2 of the 1992 models. They each have their own traits, and they differ from year to year. Alot of it is in the wood that is selected. Alot is in the way that they are balanced in production. Either way, your statement that an Ovation is an Ovation, is an Ovation.... is dead wrong. I have been in contact with Ovation about my concerns. They basically have given me the "cold shoulder". Not the kind of company I want to support. I guess my new Ovation buying days are over. I hope they are happy with there new, generic production model. It seems Ovation has no interest in producing an instrument anymore. Just a stringed instrument product. What a shame.
Mike Overacker
www.ovationcollector.com
2003 Collector
2002 Collector
2001 Collector
2000 Collector
1999 Collector
1998 Collector
1992 Collector
1992 Collector Brownburst
1986 Collector
1986 Collector
1984 Collector
1983 Collector
2001 Celebrity Doubleneck
2000 Celebrity Collector
1999 Ovation Longneck
1982 Balladeer 12 String
Ovation Breadwinner |
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Posts: 80
Location: Tampa, FL | Wow, I suppose this means my post wasn't untimely. Sincerely sorry about hitting the hornet's nest with this one.
I hate to say this for being flamed. But, I've been flamed before for asking a "stupid" question. So, without further ado...
If Ovation is seeking to expand their customer base, why do it at the expense of their current customers?
I'm a new customer and a happy one at that. However, I'm a newbie, so I feel a bit guilty and happy about my getting this guitar for about half of what other people paid. I'm happy because I bought a great guitar for a great price. I'm not happy because other people rightfully feel upset. More than likey, most of the owners who have a Collectors' Edition have been playing Ovations for awhile, and their concerns are more valuable than mine.
Maybe you're wondering why? Its because I'm a newbie and I may leave the Ovation product line for another manufacturer rather than investing in another Ovation for my next axe. Why? Because I'll wait until they have another "refurb" model at a great price. I'll actually go so far as to say that I'll probably own only one Ovation, and this one is it. I'll add that loyal Ovation owners will probably now wait for a refurb model rather than spending twice as much money.
That will put additional pressure on Ovation and their inventory and it will throw their projected numbers for manufacturing off which will lead to a series of issues. They have gone down a slippery slope on this one, and unless they correct it they will deal with more problems later.
That's counterproductive for any manufacturer because Rule 1: its a lot less expensive keeping a customer than getting one. Rule 1a: its a lot more expensive getting an old customer back after pissing them off.
As I've written, I own a Martin, a Larrivee and an Ovation and the Ovation is getting a lot more playing time than the other two. In fact, the Ovation was getting more playing time than my Martin HD-28...before I traded the Martin away.
Just my $.02
Ok, before I go I just want to add one more tidbit. My neighbor's been playing for about 35 years. Plugged in, he adores the Ovation over his 60's Gibson Hummingbird with a mic. So do I.
Regards,
Mark |
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Posts: 13987
Location: Upper Left USA | When the "newbie" posts come in with "what is mine worth" I have to grin in anticipate the obvious and recurring answer; it is worth whatever you think it is!
I like to think that I am a smart consumer and will research before a major purchase. Sometimes I have the resources available and sometimes I don't. You just have to do what you can when you think the time is right. I don't understand the pricing on the 2003VNs and I know of one at a local store tagged at $1180 - it may go to a buyer that just loves it or it may languish because most know it can be had for $799 or so.
If you want it and you can do it - DO IT!
We live in a world with a lot of "stuff" available and I know that I am spoiled! |
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Posts: 6197
Location: Phoenix AZ | Mike,
I don't think I said that an Ovation is an Ovation is an Ovation. At least I didn't mean it that way. Just look at my own collection - it's pretty diverse. You obviously are a big fan of the collectors series, and that's great. All I meant to say (and it's just my opinion) is that the pressure to intoduce a new collector guitar every year does just that - forces you to come up with something. Even if there isn't necessarily anything new and exciting at that point in time. Maybe letting things develop naturally would make the collectors more special. Maybe one year there are 3-4 new limited editions and maybe other years there are none. Martin has gotten themselves in the same rut. Everytime they sign a new artist they roll out a blah blah signature guitar. After awhile it isn;t too special. But I respect your passion for your collectors guitars, even though I don't feel the same. Heck, I've got a dozen electric storm series. Most people (if they are kind) will say they are all identical. If they are not so kind they'll say they flat our suck. But that's OK. I love them anyway. Peace, Dave |
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Posts: 10582
Location: NJ | Whem is a deal not a deal?
when you whine about it. |
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August 2002
Posts: 398
Location: So. Cal. | When you like a guitar and the price is agreeable to YOU, you buy it. Anything can happen tomorrow - price can go up or down.
What really happened to the '03 was all speculation so far, please bear that in mind.
But what do I know, I am just a friend of the guy who sells gear for a living... |
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Posts: 2503
Location: Fayetteville, NC | Al's a good friend to have :D |
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Posts: 10582
Location: NJ | I am not so sure you guys want to go public with that statement. |
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Whats with MF, "refurb" 2003 collectors they claim are not refurbs
