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Posts: 13997
Location: Upper Left USA | I have been reading the post talking about the “phasing out” of shallow bowls and I thought I’d stimulate a string and add my 3 pesos.
The majority of “Ovation Non-Fans” I have run into usually relate back to a situation where an Ovation player, unplugged, tried to dominate the sound or thought that theirs was the better instrument because they could “cut through” the mix. They can relate how they felt trampled on or how the instrument was tinny or shrill. If I pull the thread I may learn that it was more often a shallow body they were playing.
Now I know that a shallow body does not mean the guitar has to sound high ended but I have been an O Fan for quite a while and have tried many. The problem is that when someone’s first exposure to an Ovation is from an over zealous lead player or because the one they could reach in the music store was either shallow or panel – it will probably be the last time they pick one up!
I like to let these people play/hear mine and try to bring them around.
I have been on the stage with my Pacemaker – right next to the Bass Player – the feedback problem was awful. My CL 12 has the “notch” problem solver. I can see a need for shallow bodies when on stage. Excellent Engineering solutions!
I tend to gravitate toward the deeper sounds myself. I have discussed my Poor Man’s Baritone and my LX has a lot of “thump” as well. I also like the way the Multi-hole guitars swish the sound around inside just a little bit longer before they let it out! These are our tools and they each have a soul of their own. |
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Posts: 1180
Location: Vermont USA | MWoody,
Ilike what you said; (I also like the way the Multi-hole guitars swish the sound around inside just a little bit longer before they let it out!)I have been trying to figure out the tone when I am unpluged and thats it right on.
Thank You
Paul |
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Posts: 295
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | In another thread Cliff referred to the market being inundated with overseas-made shallow-bowl laminates. It is unfortunate that these are the ones most readily at hand in music stores, with the resultant damage to Ovation's rep.
I guess there's just not enough of a market base for high-end guitars for most manufacturers to survive producing only them. Even Martin is getting in on the act; a lot of what they produce now have backs and sides made of compressed wood fibers called HPL (high pressure laminate). Martin claims that's being done for wood conservation reasons, but I suspect it has more to do with trying to grab a share of that large market base for less expensive instruments. They claim that all their guitars, laminate or not, have "that famous Martin tone". Not true, at least according to my ears.
So someone who has heard about the famous Martin sound walks into a store, tries a Martin laminate, and thinks "man, that's not so great sounding". So Martin's rep gets damaged the same way the cheapo Ovations are giving Ovation a black eye. I guess it's a risk when a company develops a split personality and starts trying to cater to two different markets, particularly if the larger market is for the low-end line. |
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Posts: 295
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | I should clarify that Cliff was referring to shallow-bowls, and not necessarily overseas-made "panel" shallow-bowls. |
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December 2003
Posts: 13997
Location: Upper Left USA | To increase Market share or not to increase Market Share? That is the question. Whether it nobler in the heart to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune or to...
Well anyway, you get it!
Grab the good stuff and run! |
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Location: south east Michigan | Mike & Duncan are thinking clearly today. |
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March 2002
Posts: 15683
Location: SoCal | I just got a flyer from the Guitar Center. The Ovations in it are all Celebs and the banner say "Built to be plugged in". Who the fuc* is going to want to buy a nice Ovation to play on the front porch if they're only built to be plugged in?
I apologize if I offended anybody. Except of course, to Cliff. He's wondering what I said that could be offensive. |
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Location: NJ | Guitar Center. |
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Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | Originally posted by Duncan J:
Even Martin is getting in on the act; a lot of what they produce now have backs and sides made of compressed wood fibers called HPL (high pressure laminate)
To the rest of the world "HPL" is known as Formica |
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Posts: 13997
Location: Upper Left USA | "HPL is formica"
Is that the same as the Danelectro Combination Pro I had a while back?
Nice toy. |
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Posts: 2850
Location: Midland, MI | All of these anti-supershallow bowl threads are bringing me down, man. You guys are telling me that my Elite with the supershallow bowl is supposed to sound tinny, trebly, icepick-y with no bottom end or mid range?
Dude, you guys are sooooooooo harshing my mellow. I mean, like, all this time I thought my 1868 sounded great. I even compared it to some of those high-end wood boxes and graphite jobs when I bought it and it just sounded so much fuller.
What about the newbies that come here and search the archives and find out that super shallows are considered junk by the cognescenti? If I had know y'all felt that way, I'da never bought mine!
;) |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Ice Cream, dude.
Think Ice Cream. Lots of flavors. |
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Location: SoCal | fortunately, you listened to the guitar, not us :) |
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Posts: 136
Location: Parkersburg, WV | For what it's worth, I have an 1881 Adamas II(shallow bowl/carbon graphite top) which sound wise defies logic. When I got it new in '97, I bought it strictly on its tone. Great sound especially compared to the shallow wood tops. It may prove that carbon graphite tops in the right situation can be an improvement and not just a substitute for wood.
Patsbro |
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Posts: 95
Location: Fort worth Texas | I would just like to add that my 1867 Legend is a super shallow bowl with the AA Sitka Spruce top and It hold its own quite nicely when playing unplugged with Martins and other full bodied guitars,... I believe its because of the Sitka Spruce it resonates well and I love the tone.
That being said I do like the sound of seasoned strings as compared to new ones when unplugged though. |
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | I have to say it, even if I don't want to, even if it causes me to face the music.
When I started playing in the late 40's and early 50's, Martin, Gibson, Kay, Washburn, etc., probably sold a few hundred hand crafted guitars in a year. Wood was like weeds, it was available anywhere, a top of the line guitar was like a piece of furniture, cheap guitars were also solid wood.
Now Martin wants to supply thousands of guitars a month through GC or MF and the trees just won't grow fast enough, so a substitute has to be invented, not by research, but by hype. "Here kid is your genuine, imitation, Martin, almost like the good old days except we have replaced the wood with environmentally friendly (cheap) composites that don't damage the forests (they come from compressed sawdust from AAA spruce 2X4's) rosewood back and sides from your mother's rosebush, ground and compressed under tons of hot air. Recycled pallets provide the seasoned wood for necks and bracing, preventing Mexico from getting this valuable resource. The union stamp proves that it is all politically correct.
Relive history, buy a Martin or a Washburn, but don't blame us for the snide remarks of ancient doofuses who have real wood, but environmentally destructive guitars from the unenlightened era.
Bailey |
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Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | you still up bailey? i just got home. a wealthy guy kept us drinking pineapple and malibu all night. dasm they go down like water, and later this morning i know i am going to feel like chit waiting for the chain to be pulled.
anyway, from an ergonometric and plugged in standpoint i like my ss bodies. i don't own them for front porch picking, but i get your point. most guitar buyers arent educated in what to expect from what they have sitting on their knee. bottom line for someone buying a guitar is to buy it because it suits what you want to get from it. that can be a whole lot more than unplugged sound. most buyers tend to be a sheep and buy what will impress the rest of the sheep.
ovations aren't the only guitars i own, but they seem to be the ones i choose to play the most. but no one guitar suits every need. it would be a whole lot cheaper for me if that was the case. but ya know---- if you could make a good rugged guitar that played and sounded good and looked decent, and it was made from recycled ovation shipping boxes, i would gladly play it in the company of martins and taylors. most of those people had their minds made up (usually by the flock) what they were going to buy before they ever picked up their martin or taylor. i played lots of guitars before i even saw my first ovation which my friend let me play. it was an ovation balladeer 12 string from the late 60s or very early 70s since the year i played it was like 73 i think. it made me realize sound and playability and dependability were something that didn't have to be associated with wood or famous names. it was a revalation that changed how and what i chose to play.
i probably said this when i joined this board, but one of the things i like best about most ovation owners is that like the guitars they play they are mavericks that dont follow the sheep. they picked up a guitar they liked and it fit what they wanted to do with it and made their own decision what was right for them when they bought it. or if they are like me just a few more. |
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Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | I have a shallow bowl Legend 12 string and it does sound more "tinny" than my mid-depth guitars when unplugged. I wouldn't bring a super shallow bowl to an "unplugged" jam, but as a gig guitar, it's awesome. I can get pretty much any tone I want with a little tweaking. The shallow bowl also makes the guitar very comfortable to play and keeps feedback in check.
As far as the "cheap" Ovations go, I would suspect that the mother ship is making money on these guitars as the volume is high and the cost to produce is low. Like many other industries, they are being forced to go overseas for cheaper products. My company is about to lose it's largest account to an outfit that buys raw materials from Tiawan. It sucks, but that's the way it goes. Hopefully I wiull still have a job next month. |
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Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | The term "HPL" is what Martin uses to describe their guitar backs and sides made of compressed wood fibers.
It's interesting that they claim all Martins have the famous Martin sound, even with HPL sides and backs, yet they will price one with jacaranda (Brazilian rosewood) sides and back thousands of dollars more than one with East Indian rosewood or mahogany. Seems to me they are sending a mixed message: you can get our famous sound even with HPL, but, boy oh boy, that Brazilian rosewood sounds so much better than even other solid tone woods, it's worth paying thousands of dollars more.
As for Ovation shallow-bowls, I've never played one, but I would imagine one with a genuine spruce or cedar top must sound better than a laminate top. |
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Posts: 2503
Location: Fayetteville, NC | It's been said before, But I'll repeat it.
It's all Ice Cream...Lots of flavors.
Musical Tastes and preferences are different.
while I Personally have never been crazy about shallow bowls. There are obviously those who prefer it, be it for performance or comfort.
I just found that i prefer the Mid-depth bowls and really love deep bowls For their acoustic Sound projection. The ability to plug an Ovation in during live performances is simply Iceing on the cake for me.If Ovation stops marketing the shallow Bowl Ovations here in the US and you really prefer one . I'm sure they will be glad to do a bowl change as a custom order.
Of Course , Who knows? Ovation might just reverse their decision and keep them on the market anyway.
stranger things have happened. |
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Posts: 888
Location: Louisville, OH 44641 | Personally, I'm not a fan of the shallow and super shallow bodies. I bought a super shallow Balladeer and quickly sold it. I normally play acoustically and this Balladeer had a nasty tinny sound. I really love my Adamas 12 string (mid depth) and my Elite (deep body).
I believe Ovation has done substantial damage to their reputation with both the shallow bowl guitars and the import models. I work in a consumer product company and interface with marketing executives daily. They would tell you it's CRITICAL |
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Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | Originally posted by MWoody:
"HPL is formica"
Is that the same as the Danelectro Combination Pro I had a while back?
Danelectro used Masonite or "hardboard" as us Brits call it. |
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August 2003
Posts: 888
Location: Louisville, OH 44641 | Sorry, I hit the Enter button and posted before I was finished...
Our marketing people would tell Ovation it is CRITICAL that you differentiate your product lines in meaningful ways. For example, you might choose to have the Elite line only use the multi sound hole design with wood tops and a deep body. Legend migt have a center sound hole and a deep body. The Adamas might be the Ovation custom guitar that you build on-line and would be the only ones available with a carbon fibre top.
Perhaps the Celebrity line could consist of Ovation's shallow bodies with laminated tops. But in addition, there should also be a substantially different look. The Celebrity line should not even reference the Ovation name. In marketing terms, it's a sin to have the cheaper Celebrity guitars look nearly identical to the Adamas guitars. It confuses customers. I love the American made O's (especially with deep and mid bodies) and think they should be positioned in the market place as the premium line...not imitated by cheaper Ovation imports. |
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Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | re: In marketing terms, it's a sin to have the cheaper Celebrity guitars look nearly identical to the Adamas guitars.
I agree...however, at the time in the 80's, it was difficult to sell any "acoustic" guitar - may not have been a bad idea back then to slide in under the Ovation name. They survived and sold a lot of guitars.
Now that they have market position and placement with the Celeb line, they have an opportunity to differentiate between imports and US made. |
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Posts: 1817
Location: Minden, Nebraska | I have a sneakin' hunch that shallow bowl cutaways with electronics did a lot to actually maintain and perhaps grow Ovation's market share. |
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Shallow body Issues: Subjectivity
