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Location: Chicago | Jeff and I will try out a local studio that's done great work with acoustic artists here in Chicago. "Dr. Caw" who runs the shop seemed a bit nervous about our Ovation Obsession. His strong preference is to work directly with the acoustic sound of our instruments, all effects, synth, verb added "AFTER" the microphone; The good Doctor does NOT want to start with mic'ing amps. Has anyone recently (Sergio? Deweezil) recorded in a good studio with high-end mics? Is there any advice for getting the fullest result from our O's?
You may be asking "why a studio?" For one, to my ears home recording tends to sound like home recording. More importantly, I'd love to just focus on the music and let the tech guy deal with the rest. |
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Location: Scotland | I too would be more than nervous about anyone who would choose to record in a good studio and use piezo pickups as the primary sound source. There is not any pickup of any type, or any current 'modelling' technology that can compare to great microphones and a good engineer. Using the pickup/amp as a secondary source can be useful, but that's as far as it goes. If this guy has a track record, check him out and have the good grace to put your prejudices aside and give him a chance. I have made dozens of posts over the years about mic placement for acoustic guitar recording, as have others. If you have decided to use a "pro" studio them put your ego and your preconceptions aside and listen to the pro. If it doesn't deliver what you want then he was probably just the wrong guy. |
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Location: Connersville, Indiana | When we recorded my Ovation Elite. we used two mic's 1 on the sound holes about 6" away, on at the 12 fret. We then used 2 mic's overhead to pick up ambient sound, and one mic on the amp, plus we ran into the board from the amp. so we had 6 sounds to adjust with after the recording. If you want more sound from you picking hand place the sound hole mike at the bridge, and angle it forward, then the mic at the 12 fret angle it toward the soundholes. That's how we did mine.
Kit |
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Location: south east Michigan | I think it's a great idea to do the studio thing. From hearing your recordings, you guys have some unique talent.
And Temps advise and perspective makes all kinds of sense.
I took his advice and only use mics when I record. I don't really know what I'm doing so it still sounds like crap.... but much smaller piles of crap than if I didn't. |
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Posts: 15682
Location: SoCal | A couple of years ago I went into a studio to record a few songs. Took the OFC slothead and the Adamas I 12 string. The engineer mic'd them and both sounded outstanding in the play back.
My voice still sounded like crap tho'....... |
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Location: Texas | Like my dear friend Temp said: Nothing beats a great microphone, actually 2; placed in front of the guitar, one by the bridge and one by the end of the fingerboard.
That is what I prefer and always use in the studio.
If you want to run a third channel with the pickup, fine; but I have tried it many times and it seldom surpasses 2 great mics. That is all you need in a pro studio.
Many pro players like Al Di, and many others have used the blend of 2 signals, mic and pickup on 2 channels..........for different effects................best advice? experiment and use your ears and decide what you want to sound like.
Best of luck...
Serge |
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Location: closely held secret | Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
My voice still sounded like crap tho'....... Mic technology can only do so much... |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Originally posted by Waskel:
Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
My voice still sounded like crap tho'....... Mic technology can only do so much... |
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Location: Chicago | If this guy has a track record, check him out and have the good grace to put your prejudices aside and give him a chance. Sounds like wisdom to me. In the first place, I LOVE the natural sound of my guitars and, to be honest, no piezo/amp sound does an axe like my 1581 full justice. So I'm excited about doing (essentially) a duo CD with some percussion "seasoning" or "color". And yes, the few "Dr. Caw Recording" CDs I have are superb (at least on the acoustic guitar end of things). |
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Posts: 4081
Location: Utah | When we record at home with a mic we get all kinds of extra surprises, usually heard in the quiet segments. The neighbor's dogs barking, my son counting time to himself, a chair squeaking, the wife opening the door to see what we're doing, or one of the kid's phones beeping to signal a received text message.
A pro studio would be a real joy to experience. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Steve, you can remove 95% of the extraneous noise by draping a few thick blankets along strategic entryways and windows.
Also helps to deaden the room acoustically which will make your recordings "pop" a bit more. |
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Location: Texas | Originally posted by FlySig:
When we record at home with a mic we get all kinds of extra surprises, usually heard in the quiet segments. The neighbor's dogs barking, my son counting time to himself, a chair squeaking, the wife opening the door to see what we're doing, or one of the kid's phones beeping to signal a received text message.
A pro studio would be a real joy to experience. The Beatles, Pink Floyd and many others spent lots of time and money to get those exact same sounds INTO their songs in the studio…
…just say they were put there intentionally, and we'll applaud your genius… ;) |
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Location: Scotland | Originally posted by stephent28:
Steve, you can remove 95% of the extraneous noise by draping a few thick blankets along strategic entryways and windows.
Also helps to deaden the room acoustically which will make your recordings "pop" a bit more. Mr Terry, when I see you later this month remind me to explain to you why both of the statements in your post display a fundamental misunderstanding of both acoustic treatment and acoustic isolation. Not being a dick, just wanna help |
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Location: Bluffton, SC | No, no, no, Paul. With HIM you CAN be a dick! Really - have some fun. |
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Location: SoCal | The real dick is the guy who gets pissed at Temp for just being Temp. I know from experience...... |
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Location: closely held secret | But Moody, you are a dick. I've seen the license. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Temp,
make sure you bring my CD!
+ I am always open to learning new info and correcting faulty info. |
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Location: Indiana | A good engineer understands that everything begins with mic placement... and while there are general starting points, he/she will use their ear's to find the final mic position, not their eyes. That's especially true with our multi-hole guitars. Having said that, here are a few thoughts...
Adami are loud, which means they physically push a lot of air. I find any mic (large or small diaphragm) gets easily saturated when placed directly in front of the ports. So,I use a large diaphragm condenser on my 1681, placed parallel with the lower bout down around the 9th or 10th fret, angled between 45 and 60 degrees... much more drastic than I use on traditional single holed boxes, and further away from the source.
I mic my single holed wood tops more traditionally with a small diaphragm placed between the 12th fret and neck joint... more aligned mid or upper bout pointing towards the end of the fretboard. Often in conjunction with a large D above in an over-the-shoulder position. Especially where production is light and the guitar is not competing sonically with other instruments frequency ranges.
Personally, I avoid using any more than two carefully placed mic's. More than that can introduce phasing issues.
I realize your question concerns choices that will be made by the person you are hiring... not your own self engineering. But, hopefully this will give you some things to watch for when you are getting set up to record. Encourage him/her to experiment if they have never worked with non-traditional sound hole's.
I'm adding this link to samples for example... not trying to sell my wares. :-)
The "Carolina Charlie" clip is an example of my Adamas micing... stacked twice for rhythm parts.
"Feed My People" is a traditional single hole Classic 1613, double mic'd as above... one pass.
http://www.jonmarkstone.com/EIS/eis.html |
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Posts: 2120
Location: Chicago | Wow, Jonmark, thanks for the detailed advice! Same goes for Temp and Sergio. It will really help to have some idea of what to expect and what to do. The guitar sound(s) you achieve are phenomenal!
FOLLOW-UP question: ANY ADVICE ON the order of recording? Two guitars plus percussion... Can the percussion be done in real time? Or is it usually click track and then add whatever? I find a click-track confining for our duo stuff that wants to breathe... |
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Posts: 4081
Location: Utah | Originally posted by dobro:
FOLLOW-UP question: ANY ADVICE ON the order of recording? Two guitars plus percussion... Can the percussion be done in real time? Or is it usually click track and then add whatever? I find a click-track confining for our duo stuff that wants to breathe... I feel out of my league in this thread, but nobody else has offered an opinion on this.
When I record my stuff, I like to do it methodically. First is some experimentation and even a demo track. Once I know what I want, it is time to build it. First is a basic percussion track, unpolished but to a metronome. Then it is a rhythm guitar track. Then maybe some additional embellishments, different guitars, maybe some brass or keys. When it is pretty well formed, bass goes in. Now it is time to refine the drum track, maybe totally redo it. A melody is added, either guitar or piano. Now it is time for vocals.
I like to record one track at a time, and build it up.
But when I record Sara and/or Katie it is totally different. They both HATE click tracks or drum loops. They prefer to be able to vary their tempo as the mood strikes them. And most importantly they want to do it all in one take, including vocals, guitar, keys, and any additional contributors.
I like constant tempo and the rhythm guitar is my main foundation. The girls don't care about constant tempo, and they require the live group performance to make the magic happen.
Which is a long way of getting around to saying that I think you should determine what is the dominant factor for you. If you need the interaction of playing together, then do it that way. The studio should be able to mic everybody up simultaneously, and the studios I've seen have isolation areas or the ability to put up sound absorbing barriers to isolate the drums or other loud instruments. |
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Posts: 2120
Location: Chicago | Thanks, Fly. That makes good sense. For many tunes I guess I'm in the latter category: I need to slow down, a bit of rubato, then pick up. It's hard to set a metronome to some of our stuff.... |
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Posts: 7247
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Originally posted by Paul Templeman:
I too would be more than nervous about anyone who would choose to record in a good studio and use piezo pickups as the primary sound source. There is not any pickup of any type, or any current 'modelling' technology that can compare to great microphones and a good engineer. Using the pickup/amp as a secondary source can be useful, but that's as far as it goes. If this guy has a track record, check him out and have the good grace to put your prejudices aside and give him a chance. I have made dozens of posts over the years about mic placement for acoustic guitar recording, as have others. If you have decided to use a "pro" studio them put your ego and your preconceptions aside and listen to the pro. If it doesn't deliver what you want then he was probably just the wrong guy. +1 Totally agree.
When I have recorded Ovations in the studio, I tend to go for the sound of the instrument with Mic's. I like to track the pre-amp as well and have used that track in the mix on cccasion to compliment the microphones or fill in someplace, maybe to help articulate a passage.. but primarily, good mics and good mic placement will get phenomenal results. |
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June 2005
Posts: 1320
Location: Round Rock, TX | Originally posted by Paul Templeman:
I too would be more than nervous about anyone who would choose to record in a good studio and use piezo pickups as the primary sound source. There is not any pickup of any type, or any current 'modelling' technology that can compare to great microphones and a good engineer. Using the pickup/amp as a secondary source can be useful, but that's as far as it goes. If this guy has a track record, check him out and have the good grace to put your prejudices aside and give him a chance. I have made dozens of posts over the years about mic placement for acoustic guitar recording, as have others. If you have decided to use a "pro" studio them put your ego and your preconceptions aside and listen to the pro. If it doesn't deliver what you want then he was probably just the wrong guy. Amen, brother. |
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December 2008
Posts: 1456
Location: Texas | I'm just delighted to hear that Guitars of Fire will be heading into the studio… I hope we'll we all be invited to the CD release party… |
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Location: Chicago | Oh yeah! We would be honored!! But let's first make the record:) |
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Ovation/Adamas in the STUDIO
