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Location: Lakewood, Ohio | Assuming the worst, what if someone sold (or rather bought)an FRG without the identifying sticker, how can you find outif that particular guitar is an FRG?? |
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Location: South of most, North of few | I may be way off here, but don't they stamp "used" on the back of the headstock? |
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Location: Lakewood, Ohio | No, they invite fraud by placing a mere sticker on the inside of the body. |
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Location: South of most, North of few | I've seen some on the bay with that used stamp in the wood of the headstock, (that looks like crap). Why or what is that? |
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Location: Lakewood, Ohio | I read that Ovation keeps track of the frg's, perhaps there customer service can look it up? |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | I think if you contact the factory with the serial number they can tell you if it was an FRG or not. But you should know based on the warranty. If you got a 5 year warranty then it is an FRG. New ones have limited lifetime warranties.
This is subtle semantics, but technically only new guitars bought from an authorized dealer can be FRG's. There's really only three calegories of purchase for USA Ovations:
1. New w/ full new limited lifetime warranty. Only sold by authorized dealers. This would include NOS which are new but a few years old and just have never yet sold. Would also include demos which have been played in the sellers showroom and might be discounted a little.
2. New FRG w/ 5 year warranty. Same as above but wuth 5 year FRG warranty.
3. USED. That's everything else.
Yeah, there's always exceptions like the job lot guitars, the ones that fell of the rep's truck,etc. But basically as far as I see it that's the categories. The reason I mention this is because a few years ago someone was busting my balls because I was selling one of my guitars. It was used, no warranty, as-is, take it or leave it, blah blah blah. They pointed out the fact that when I bought the guitar new it was an FRG and that by not stating it in the used sale that it was originally an FRG I was somehow trying to dupe the buyers. I claimed this was total BS because the moment I took ownership of the new guitar, it became no longer an FRG. It became a USED guitar which is even one step lower.
Now stepping off soapbox ....
Dave |
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Location: Lakewood, Ohio | So basically, once its sold used its used and it doesnt matter if the sticker has been removed? |
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Location: NJ | you got it Todd.
the warranty is not transferable BUT if you bought it new and it is traced as FRG and not represented as such you have a problem with your dealer.
there have been instances where some dealer "claim" the sticker fell off or the guitar did not have one etc. IMHO that is BS |
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Location: Rocky River, Ohio | and also, just to add,
i've examined many new FRG's from authorized dealers and have never been able to determine what the flaw was.
FRG's are a genuine bargain.
Ernie |
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| Dave, I remember that thread. I don't recall your "balls being busted," however, if they were you'd probably remember better than I. You had placed an item for sale and someone said they felt you should have listed the fact that it was an FRG. I agreed that if it is an FRG and you are aware of it, then you should list that as part of a full disclosure of info about an item. It may not matter to you as a seller, but it may make a difference to the buyer. I believe you later did change the listing. I don't recall anyone taking a sledgehammer to your privates on that one. It was simply people with different opinions in a friendly discussion. I've only seen 2 frgs in my life, and I couldn't tell anything remotely wrong with either one. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by Englishplayer:
I believe you later did change the listing. Yes I did change it because multiple people here really took offense to it. But the event really pissed me off and still does because if there is one thing that I am NOT it's dishonest or a cheat. The guitar was USED, I advertised it as USED and how the hell I obtained it was nobodies business. Those people who jumped on me were WRONG and I was RIGHT.
Take for example my previous automobile. I bought it brand new with full warranty. But I got $5000. off the sticker price because it had 900 miles on it from being used as a service loaner. When I sold the car 3 years later was I being dishonest because I didn't tell the buyer it wasn't "exactly" new when I got it?
I think Ovation really started a bad precident with the FRG's by not identifying what the hell they really are and by not permanently marking them. Call them what they are - SECONDS. And put a permanent mark on them so huge dealers west of the Mississippi and north of Texas can't 1) sell FRG's as 1st quality or 2) advertise 1st qualities as FRG's to avoid MAP rules.
Done. |
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| Dave, I posted at the time that I disagreed with you on that one (and still do), but I never thought nor did I claim that you were trying to be dishonest. I do agree with you on the last paragraph of your statement there about how the FRG should be handled by Ovation. |
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Location: East Tennessee | It really doesn't matter. If you own a guitar and sell it on ebay , it is a used guitar. |
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Location: Omaha, NE | I don't understand the logic of an "FRG" guitar. If they aren't really "seconds" or "blems", why have the designation at all?
Dave knows more about Ovations that I ever will, so I'll accept his logic above. But if you do, then the whole logic of the FRG system falls down. If there is nothing to distinguish an FRG from a non-FRG, why have it? On the other hand, if there is a difference, then I think a seller would be obligated to say "this was originally sold as an FRG because of a bla bla bla problem with the bla bla bla". |
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Location: CT | People who don't know any better (which is most of the guitar playing population), think of 'seconds' as less than perfect new guitars. The guitar was 'flawed' in some way when it left the factory. Even if they can't see it, and all the marks you put on it before you sold it are much worse, to them the 'second' stamp has that aura of defect about it. We know better, and get good deals for it. My 12 string LX was a second, I had to ask where the flaw was. If I handed it to any of you, you'd have to ask too. That's how small and insignificant it is. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | I agree, this whole FRG thing is a huge can of worms. At last May factory visit I asked Rick Hall, head of marketing point blank what was the definition of "FRG". He said, they are new guitars which did not pass the usual quality check. They are either sold that way, or sent back into the line for repair. If the repair makes the guitar different from a first quality guitar then it till considered an FRG. I assume this means significant things like reglueing the bridge or something like that. Again, I'm assuming but if a guitar fails at quality check because of a broken tuning button or a bad pre-amp, I would suspect they replace that defective part and it sells as a first quality guitar. So my interpretation of this is that FRG's are SECONDS. They either have some flaw that makes them seconds, or have been repaired in such a way that they are still considered seconds. I think Rick also said that NEW guitars that come back from the dealer with some defect are also repaired and sold as FRG's. So for example I would assume that if GC gets a legend and it has a few frets that are popping out, they return it and the factory fixes the frets and sells it as an FRG. I'm making a lot of assumptions here, but basically as best I can recall that's the explanation that Rick gave. Does anyone else rememebr this conversation during the Q&A?
Now HERE is my own business savvy consiracy theory. I have NO reason to believe this is true, but I suspect it is because it would be good business practice and exactly wgat I would do if I was running the ship: If I'm overstocked with some particular model for some reason (say Lusty Red Elite-T's), I would mark FIRST QUALITY guitars as FRG's just to blow them out the door and manage inventory. Remember, business is a combination of how MUCH money I can make and how FAST I can make it. If I can move them FAST, then I can afford to cut the price a little. IFFFFFF my suspecian is true, then this would explain why 1) there are so many FRG's and 2) why so many of them seem to be perfect quality guitars.
Dave |
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Location: CT | Originally posted by Tupperware:
wgat I would do if I was running the ship: If I'm overstocked with some particular model for some reason (say Lusty Red Elite-T's), I would mark FIRST QUALITY guitars as FRG's just to blow them out the door and manage inventory. Dave Why not sell them as 1st quality in an overstock sale. You'd more likely sell more 1st quality quitars at a good price than seconds at the same price. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Because 1st qualities can't be advertised below MAP. |
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| Dave, from what you remember hearing that description sure sounds like a second to me; forget the "reconditioned" tag (a second is a second is a second).
Brainslag, it may be as good as new, but if they have to do a semi-major repair then it isn't new. In fact, if Ovation thought it was as good as new then why is the warranty less than with a new guitar?
If you don't mind the FRg tag, then it appears to me that there are good deals to be had out there since none of us here can find a problem with any of the FRGs.
At the end at the year 2003, the market was flooded (a massive deluge) with frgs of the 2003 Collector which appeared to be a poor seller during the year. At that time I was told by the guy at Music.Friend that their buyer said they were first told they were new models (and they were advertised as new) and later were told that there is nothing wrong with the guitar
and that Ovation had slapped the FRG stamp on them to make them move at a lower price (I've mentioned this in several threads before). I've never seen that statement by the Musicfriend guy verified by anyone here. If Ovation is doing that then it is stricitly unethical conduct which screws the people who previously paid a regular price for the item, and screws the dealers who can't advertise items beneath Ovation's own map.
I wonder how Ovation would respond if a dealer said, "We took all of Ovations to a gig Friday. Used each one for two chords then placed back in case. Now, they're technically used so each for $200 - $400 under map." Can dealers try to cheat the Map situation?
The entire FRG thing needs much more clarity. even though it has been explained nere several times which repairs equal a FRG? If you have the serial number, can you find out? |
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Location: Omaha, NE | The real problem here is that apparently no one knows if "FRG" means (a) something was wrong and it was fixed or (b) there is a minor cosmetic problem or (c) we needed to move these fast so we relabled them or (d) some other scenario.
All we really know is that an FRG is an FRG, which is precisely as meaningless as saying 5=5. |
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Location: us | I personaly would not purchase a FRG if I can't see the cause and effect of the defect or repair. If the FRG is labeled as such for cosmetic defects then I'll take it to the house with a discount and a smile, but structural or assembly defects/repairs on a new instrument dose not make me warm and fuzy inside. I'm new to ovations and didn't know about FRG's , I'm gunshy now as to the honesty of the dealer I'm buying from who ever the next one may be. geez, only a sticker that can be peeled off to tell the difference, holy smokes give me a break, have to start calling the SS# in for a check like running VIN # on a car. :eek: |
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Location: Sunshine State, Australia | I bought a 2005ES FRG and emailed the mother ship to find out what the 'fault' was. They couldn't find the paperwork, but thought that my particular guitar's 'problem' was cosmetic.
I can't find a thing wrong with it cosmetically.
And anybody that say's the sticker "fell off" is gonna go to hell for lyin', coz those suckers don't come off with nuthin less than a low flying napalm attack.
I would buy another FRG in a second, as long as I got to inspect it first. |
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Location: CT | 5=5? No wonder I had such a problem with math! :confused: |
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How can you find if FRG
