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Location: Las Vegas | Well, the Balladeer arrived today. Unfortunately, either UPS and the cold or both did a real number on it. There are several humongous cracks in the lacquer all the way to the wood... it looks as if it might have taken a hit on the side where the pickguard would be. There's also one large crack along the grain of the wood from the bottom to the bridge, but not in the middle where they usually develop; this one is toward the side where all the other cracks are near the pickguard side.
1. Can finish cracks develop from cold during shipping? Or from taking a bump? It was in the original Ovation case and boxed, but no peanuts and minimal bubble wrap only at the base.
2. Can these be repaired without a complete new top at the mothership?
This truly was a beautiful guitar, and the wood top appears to be in good shape, except for those cracks.
Thanks!
Les |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | 1 yes
2 yes
Chances are the damage is laquer cracks. Was it insured? Do you have pics before it shipped that showed no cracks?
My guess is that the factory could make it look new for around $150 + shipping both ways. |
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Location: Las Vegas | Thanks... that's good news. I was hoping that the seller was honest.
There are before pictures, but of course they don't show the area that has the cracks, and what they do show isn't clear enough. The cracks (they are just lacquer) do look brand new.
As far as insurance, it's never worth it, because if they give you the money, but you have to give them the guitar!!
I got it for a very good price, so fixing it will probably be the way to go! And it sounds great!
Thanks!!
Les
:) |
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Location: SoCal | As far as insurance, it's never worth it, because if they give you the money, but you have to give them the guitar!!
Les, not true...
Had a difficult process for my 1658 awhile back but I kept the guitar, they gave me the $'s to have the factory repair. The factory is pretty good at seal and buff but a full top refinish may be necessary to remove the finish cracks (about $350 two years ago on the Custom Legend 1658-more expensive because of the abalone rosette). Get a quote from Kim to submit to UPS. Might have to send the guitar to the factory for a quote - if you do, ask UPS to ship it to them at no charge.
At least you could get a written statement from seller concerning the areas that are damaged.
Whatever you do, do not release the guitar to UPS (unless they are shipping to factory). |
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Location: Minden, Nebraska | In my experience, these cracks are most often related to impact, and a guitar is especially vulnerable in cold weather.
The insurance company will only take the guitar if it is declared a total loss. IF, and that is a big if, UPS acknowledges that the damage occured while the guitar was in their hands, they will pay to have it repaired. Having it repaired at the factory is the way to go.
The challenge is getting the insurance company that handles claims for UPS to concede that UPS is responsible. That is no small feat, as they will do all they can to claim that the damage was present prior to shipping or that it occured afterward. Save all of your packaging, as that is necessary.
FWIW, I switched to FedEx a couple of years ago. After shipping nearly a thousand guitars via UPS, their insurance agent essentially called me a liar and refused to honor a claim. That battle went on for months to no avail. So, I switched. FedEx users have their own share of horror stories, but I don't have any yet after a couple hundred successful shipments. |
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Location: Fayetteville, NC | Les,
For around $350 they will do a Total refinish on the guitar making it as good as new.This will include striping off the old finish and puting new finish on. Otherwise email Kim or give him a call for a quote on just sealing the cracks. It all depends on how you want it to look in the end.
Let us know how it comes out. |
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Location: NJ | I would strongly hesitate in giving any numbers from the service department. Easch instrument is an individual case and John and Kim have to evaluate it accordingly. |
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Location: Minden, Nebraska | What Al said. The nature of the crack determines the scope of repair, along with any other issues that present themselves. Ballpark figures can be tossed around, but can only be relied upon as informed guesses.
A refin of a cracked guitar doesn't make it good as new, either, imho. My main squeeze these days is a cracked #1869 that I had sent to the factory. They sealed the crack and smoothed the top before refinishing it. There is still a crack, however; it is just a much more attractive one. |
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Location: GATLINBURG TENNESSEE :) | I had a large 12" long crack in an acoustic bass that was shipped to me via UPS. I obtained a statement from the seller that said there were no such cracks prior to shipping, then I obtained an estimate from a luthier. I took those to the UPS office and submitted a damge claim, and they had a check for me in two weeks. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | I recently had an issue with finish cracks on a shipped guitar and FedEx claimed that it wa snot due to physical damage (impact), but could only have happened due to environmental conditions. And the fine print stated that "normal" environmental conditions such as heat, cold, humidity are not covered. I could have appealed but was told the only positive outcome would full payment (they appearently do not do partial payments for "repairs" under these conditions). Sounds like UPS policy may be a bit more forgiving. Dave |
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Location: SoCal | One of the reasons that I usually use USPS Priority or other air service is that we avoid (as much as possible) the extreme summer heat or the winter cold. This last summer, a FedEx rep. advised me to not ship ground for almost two weeks due to the heat (San Diego to Toronto). A couple of years ago, sent a guitar Priority to Nils in Central Oregon (middle of an ice storm) - arrived in two days with no damage. If trucked/rail to him, no idea what damage there might have been. |
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Location: Las Vegas | Thanks everyone! Great discussion, lot of good information and advice all around. Turns out the seller wants to pay for half the repair, so I'll wait for the classical to arrive and see how it turns out. I might ship all three (12-string included) back to the mothership for repairs in one batch (if the classical needs any as well.)
Goes to show to that sometimes guitars survive better only in their cases than when boxed... at least they know what they're carrying in a case and usually treat it gently. Huge boxes they hate and just kick them around. Of course the best is a factory case deep in a box completely surrounded with bubble wrap and foam... peanuts always move.
I was wrong about insurance... only the USPS requires you to give them the item.
Les |
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Location: New Hampsha | I learned the hard way when my O 12-string was left in a moving van overnight in February '01. No impact, just frozen overnight sitting in the driveway, and it came out of the van with several large finish cracks.
UPS considers "normal environmental conditions" to be -30F to +130F with 0-80% humidity. So be forewarned and avoid shipping things that won't take those temps. |
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Location: Omaha, NE | Originally posted by Paul Blanchard:
In my experience, these cracks are most often related to impact, and a guitar is especially vulnerable in cold weather. I don't know much about shipping guitars, but my company (www.SpeedBinder.com) ships thousands of looseleaf binders every month, and dealing with shipping damage is just a part of our business.
My experience is very similar to what Paul described. Cold alone is rarely the problem. It is cold combined with rough handling. Materials become incredibly brittle when they get really cold. Even the smallest amount of impact can cause damage.
One thing we do that might apply to guitars: In the winter months, if at all possible we palletize and ship by truck rather than using FedEx Ground or UPS. Trucking rates are lower than you might think (although the key here is to find a local, friendly company that has pre-negotiated discounts. The trucking business is one where NOBODY pays list price. Our discounts with trucking companies average about 75%) so it is not out of the question to place a guitar on a pallet and ship it that way. The main advantage is that the carton is not going to get tossed around. The only handling it will receive is when it gets wheeled around using a pallet jack.
Just a thought...
Jeff |
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Location: East Wenatchee, WA | OH GREAT>>>>> My Adamas just shipped from New York to Oregon Fed Ex Ground. And we have had weeks of low temps.
I will likely receive a frozen piece of carbon fiber junk by the time it get's here next week.
Wish I would have paid the extra $100 now for 2 day. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Your Adamas should be safe from the weather. It is the wood tops that have a potential problem. |
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Location: Minden, Nebraska | Jeff,
I don't think the Adamas tops have the same vulnerability. And speed of shipping isn't the way to protect the guitar. Good packing is. I ship Ovations globally year round with only a very rare incident of damage, and I always send a list of packing tips to anyone who sells me an Ovation.
Packing has been discussed at length in other threads that can be searched in the archives. Careful packing to protect the top goes a long way. |
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Location: Warrenton, Virginia | Les
I had the factory replace an entire top on my Ovation folk classical about 18 months ago. It ran me about $450....they did a great job. The guitar is better than it was before i got it (1975.) The cracks on my guitar were similar to what you described except, they had gone all the way through the sound board of my guitar. I waited too long to get them fixed...and temperature conditions etc made them worse.
According to Kim Keller, that was the only alternative for me.
Sounds like yours may not be as severe; but recommend you get it tended to before they get worse...and they will. Send it to the factory and let them evaluate it.
/r |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | My last two repairs at the Mothership ran me over $600 each but considering the original value of the guitar and the fact that they came back in "NEW" condition, even that price was a bargain. |
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Location: GATLINBURG TENNESSEE :) | Sometimes it's a tough decision if the cracks aren't very large. I have a few cracks in my 1869, with the largest being about 2" I can't justify ther expense of a new finish job at this time, so I decided to pursue finding a way to either slow or stop their progression. After spending quite a bit of time looking at available finish/repair products, I found one that seems to have worked. It is a WATER BASED Minwax product called (I believe this is correct, but I don't have it near me) Acrylic Polyshades. It comes in the standard gloss choices and also in some very small cans, so you don't have to buy a full quart. I just took a small art brush and after loading the brush, I let the stuff wick into the cracks, let it set for a couple of munites and start to dry, then used a damp rag with warm water to wipe off the residuals. It seems to have filled very nicely leaving the cracks less noticeable. I guess I'll have to wait a while and see if it stops them. I've also found that a humidifier has proven to be an essential item for the wood tops. |
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Finish cracks - shipping and repairs
