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Joined:
April 2008
Posts: 2985
Location: Sydney, Australia | My 12 string action is too high. The neck appears to be as straight as can be, so from previous posts I've deduced that I can remove shims from under the bridge.
I'm waiting for some new strings to arrive first (damned if I'm going to remove 12 strings and then put the old ones back on) before I attempt this and thought I'd get some more info.
Once I've taken the strings off, can I just pull out the white bit the strings rest on with my fingers, or does it take a bit of wriggling to get it out? The action is fairly high. How many shims will I find in there? Should I take them all out, or leave some in? Any other words of wisdom? |
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Joined:
September 2003
Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan | Even on a new guitar right our of the factory the number of shims you'll find can vary.
You'll just have to take your best guess on how many to take out. The more often you do it, the better guesser you'll be. It's an aquired talent
And since it's a 12 string you will have a lot of incentive to become the best guesser you can possibly be. |
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Joined:
August 2005
Posts: 3736
Location: Sunshine State, Australia | Some saddles ("the white bit the strings rest on") come straight out, some need persuading. If the action is too high, my guess is there will probably be 3 in there. If there is only 1 or none, you've got problems.
Some members here are able to remove the saddle with the strings merely loosened. I need to completely remove them.
I can understand you not wanting to put old strings back on, but only take one shim out at a time. Take the thinnest shim out first, unless your action is REALLY high.
Be patient. Take your time and get the action right with this string changing session, and you shouldn't have to do it again for a long time.
So, wait until you've got the new strings, take off the old strings, remove only one shim out at a time, restring her and if it's still too high, just take the strings off again, take out another shim and restring it again. Hey, the strings are still new.  |
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Joined:
October 2002
Posts: 153
Location: Huntington Beach, CA | My advice is to be careful when removing shims, especially if this is how the guitar came from the factory. You may find one of the shims to be tapered to adjust saddle height to match the fretboard radius or add some height for the bass strings to fully oscillate. You want to maintain the factory setting if possible and remove a shim (or shims) that are the same height from one end of the slot to the other.
There could also be partial shims on one side of the slot or the other which do the same thing as the tapered shim, basically, but don't allow the saddle assembly to seat as well as tapered shims. Whichever method the factory used, try to preserve it as you make the adjustment.
There are many other adjustments that contribute to sound and playability. When changing a factory setting, it's rare that one single adjustment is all that is necessary. Keep track of what you do so you can un-do it if you need to. Good luck.
-Eman. |
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Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 1071
Location: Carle Place, NY | There is a way to estimate how much lower the action will be by removing a shim. Generally, the action at the 12th fret will be lower by 1/2 the thickness of the shim. Get a good quality metal ruler with inscribed increments of at least 1/32" and measure the action at the 12th fret under the low E string. That means the distance between the top of the 12th fret and the bottom of the string. Factory spec is 3/32". If the measurement is over 5/32" even if there are 3 shims, you probably can't lower the action to 3/32" and a neck re-set may be needed. Ovation uses thick and thin shims. I find that removing one thick shim lowers the action by 1/64th inch. |
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Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | Originally posted by Eman:
My advice is to be careful when removing shims, especially if this is how the guitar came from the factory. Nonsense. Though Ovations are less prone to this than most other brands, A guitars set-up is never a constant. Apart from years of string-tension and the changes in geometry that causes, a factory set-up may be made unplayable simply by moving from one climate to another, one season to another, one country to another, or even by being stored in a different room with a different heating arrangement.
Simple set-up procedures such as shimming saddles and truss-rod adjustments are things every player should understand and be able to do themselves. The whole point of Ovation using shims in the first place is that it made something that was previously seen as an arcane skilled job a simple owner's task.
And Mitch is right, it works 2 to 1. A 2mm change at the bridge produces a 1mm change at the 12th fret, 3mm = 1.5mm. It's easy and you can't do any damage to the guitar.
One last point, if you find all the shims are already out and the action is still too high, and/or you have a shallow string break-angle over the saddle, then your guitar needs a neck re-set. |
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Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12761
Location: Boise, Idaho | A good rule of thumb is that if I can do it, anyone can do it. I've taken shims out many times and have only screwed it up the first time. That was before I realized that the shims were fibreboard and in the bottom of the hole for the saddle. It's not too hard to take them out after loosening the strings, but I don't know how much time it saves by taking the strings all the way off the tuning pegs.
Like Paul says, this is something that should be done by the owner. I wonder about anyone who claims that a guitar was professionally set up, unless the owner has money to burn or the setup includes a neck reset or fret replacement. |
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Joined:
December 2007
Posts: 38
Location: Montana | Just put the low e string on after taking a shim out. If its still to high you have one string to work with not twelve. Take another shim out. You get it close put em all on and check it out. |
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Joined:
April 2008
Posts: 2985
Location: Sydney, Australia | Thanks for all these wonderful hints. My strings arrive tomorrow (hopefully) so I can pull them off and have a go at this. I'll get the ruler out so I can do some before & after measurements. |
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Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12761
Location: Boise, Idaho | I like warpaint's idea. Usually if you get a buzz it's on the low E, so if it buzzes, put a shim back in. |
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Joined:
December 2006
Posts: 6268
Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Whatever happened to evaluating setups with ALL the strings on? If you use only one string and you get buzz, you deserve the buzz due to not having full-tuned tension.
There are no shortcuts to doing a setup properly! I would guess that most 'home' setup problems are due to not following the established procedures well documented on the web.
The pros that do take shortcuts get away with 'em due to experience. I seriously doubt any of them use only one string though! |
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Joined:
April 2007
Posts: 225
Location: Stow, Ohio | I would first make sure the soundboard isn't bowing/bulging or the bridge isn't tilting forward.
I would use the old strings while to ar making adjustments getting the action at the desired height, then put the new strings on.
It can be more involved getting good action, neck angle, nut slot depths, bridge saddle height, and leveling the frets. |
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Joined:
August 2005
Posts: 3736
Location: Sunshine State, Australia | Warpaint's idea wont work, sorry. Like Iffy said, you need ALL of the strings on to get the right tension - especially a 12 string. Those suckers put quite a strain on the neck.
Put one string on, you'll think it's fine. Then tune to CP and the action will be too high again.
NO shortcuts! Especially for someone who's asking how to do it. No disrespect intended Rich. Do it once, do it right. |
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Joined:
April 2008
Posts: 2985
Location: Sydney, Australia | Well I dived in. The starting action was 6/32". The saddle came out with a bit of wriggling, followed by the pickup. Both shims must have known they were in trouble because they ran around inside that little slot for 5 minutes before I came across the idea of holding the guitar upside down and shaking the bejeezus out of it.
With both shims out (no sign of a third one) the action with new strings came down to 4/32". Soundboard looks flat, neck looks straight and bridge is attached normally. I guess I can live with what I've got now, unless someone has a solution that doesn't involve a luthier. |
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Joined:
December 2007
Posts: 38
Location: Montana | Wont work? It did on two Os and a Yamaha at the shop this week. Understand I you get it close with the e string if the action is way high. Then like I said befor you get it close put all the strings on and check it out. Never said to check one string. |
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Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 5567
Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | I've done this at least a couple of dozen times: and many of them were 12 strings. If you have the strings off, great: remove one or more shims and restring: all of them need to be on since the resulting string tension will not be correct without a complete retune. If already strung w/fairly new strings, then just loosen until they rattle, take a harmonica case or a piece of 1 inch wood w/cloth covering it and place it under the strings sliding gently toward the bridge. The strings will be raised; you'll be able to remove the saddle or the p/u and then the shim or shims. Replace the saddle or p/u and slide the "helper" back towards the neck and remove, retune and you're in business. There are lots of ways to do this but this is the fastest and easiest I have found. If the action is too low, replace one shim using the same process. This process is really handy on a 12 string (especially Pacemakers w/a slothead). |
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Removing shims
