The Ovation Fan Club
The Ovation Fan Club
Forum Search | Statistics | User Listing Forums | Calendars | Albums | Language
Your are viewing as a Guest. ( logon | register )

Random quote: “Music is a moral law. It gives soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and charm and gaiety to life and to everything.” -Plato



Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page]
Twin 1861 Neck Resets and...

View previous thread :: View next thread
   Member Communities -> Bottom Feeding Luthiery GuildMessage format
 
arumako
Posted 2014-08-30 4:18 AM (#493822)
Subject: Twin 1861 Neck Resets and...



Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1034

Location: Yokohama, Japan

Hope you all don't mind my sharing again, but I must admit. I am totally addicted to restoring guitars! My son and I both have 1861s and they both were in need of a neck reset. Since, the Mother Ship is gone, and I'm way off in the farthest eastern corner of the world, where luthiers will only work on Ovation if you are asking for basic stuff like fret jobs, bridge saddles, nuts, etc... I figured I'd better get used to doing neck resets myself. I'm sure you all have already "been there, done that," but the 1861 is a great place to start because the necks are bolted on, and with some 300 grit sandpaper, clear packing tape, and a socket wrench, you can get a quick neck reset done in about 45 minutes...

11mm Bolt

The fingerboard is glued securely on to the soundboard, but the heel of the neck is not glued. It is bolted on using this 11mm bolt.

I just need 300 grit sandpaper and I applied clear packing tape on the back of the sandpaper strip to make sure the sandpaper doesn't tear between the gap of the neck heel and lyrachord body. Calculations told me that 0.04mm needed to come off from the heel of the neck. So I flipped the sandpaper up...

pushed the neck forward just a bit (pushing too hard will crack the soundboard, the neck or both), and carefully and slowly pulled the sandpaper back making sure not to leave any sandpaper residue behind. I did this 15 times on the left, right and center. I then mounted the neck using the bolt again and checked the neck angle. But a little bit more needed to come off...

After another 10 strokes with the sandpaper on the left, right and center. Just about the right amount of material was removed from the heel of the neck.

2000 1861 Standard Balladeer

And in about 45 minutes I was done. My son's guitar is right at 1.8mm at the 12 fret and sounding sweet, but it will need a fret job soon! Jeez, so much more to learn!

So, I thought I'd do the same with my 1994 1861; but when I took the 11mm bolt off, there was some crackling sound and the neck just came loose! There was lots of glue under the fingerboard, and low and behold more cringing...

Not quite sure what happened here, but I bought both of these guitars off of the Bay...really inexpensive, like...apparently the previous owner tried something and gouged the top of the soundboard underneath the neck in the process, then used a ton of some kind of adhesive to try to put the thing back together and was not successful. Hence the low price on the Bay...anyway...

I decided to put the Slo-Zap (recommended by DanSavage) I got for my "1117-4 Repair" to good use, and used it to fill the gouge on the soundboard.

Cleaned her up and sanded her down flat...

Cleaned the neck up and sanded her down flat...

Then I decided to add a shim to the joint between the neck and the body. This is actually an iPad screen protector. It's quite hard and is 0.05mm thick. If I ever have to do this again, I can just remove the bolt, take out the shim, and be done. 

I decided to use Z-Poxy to glue the fingerboard back onto the soundboard. I've learned that clamping order and strategy are essential to complete a project like this successfully; so I did a bunch of dry runs...

I did a final dry run, and with everything clean, it turned out all I needed to do was reassemble everything to have the perfect neck angle! Oh yeah! So, I applied the glue and put the shim into its proper place...

...and clamped her up...now to wait for 72 hours! I am just having an absolute blast! I can't wait to get this together and play it with the new neck angle! It's gonn be awesome!

...And then this baby came in from my neighbor...an Ibanez with a broken neck!

This was bought new by my neighbor's son (who's living in Europe now) some years ago. This was not a factory refurb or anything like that! Talk about cringe factor. Still, it was his favorite guitar and since he's getting married soon, I thought I'd send it to him for a wedding present! I'm glad I removed the fingerboard and not the neck! What a nightmare! 

Hoping to get this done before summers gone! Just one more week to go!



Edited by arumako 2014-08-30 4:25 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
tpa
Posted 2014-08-30 6:12 AM (#493824 - in reply to #493822)
Subject: Re: Twin 1861 Neck Resets and...


Joined:
December 2004
Posts: 566

Location: Denmark
Thank you for another educating post. Good illustration also of the bottom of the Kaman bar. More than half of the area where the neck meets the body seems to be the metal of the K bar so the abrasive method is PROBABLY only for small corrections - which I believe 0.04mm is.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
DanSavage
Posted 2014-08-30 11:12 AM (#493828 - in reply to #493822)
Subject: Re: Twin 1861 Neck Resets and...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2316

Location: Pueblo West, CO
Wow, arumako!

You're going all out as a luthier, aren't you?

I did a neck reset on a 1983 Collector's Edition and like your second 1861, mostly it was fixing the botched work done by the previous luthier. Once I got the top and neck cleaned up, I just had to bolt it back together for perfect alignment. I did have to shim one side of the neck to get it aligned with the bridge. The guitar's owner was very happy when he got it back.

Dan
Top of the page Bottom of the page
arumako
Posted 2014-08-30 3:57 PM (#493833 - in reply to #493822)
Subject: RE: Twin 1861 Neck Resets and...



Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1034

Location: Yokohama, Japan
Thanks for reading and commenting. I really appreciate it.

tpa - 2014-08-29 8:12 PM

Good illustration also of the bottom of the Kaman bar.


So...that's what the "Kaman bar" is. I've always wondered, whenever I read posts on this forum...didn't even realize I had one right in front of me. Is it aluminum? On my 1861, it was pretty clear that the previous owner tried to gouge into the "Kaman bar" with a chisel and gave up. I sanded it down and smoothed it out, and figured a shim would help. And yes, I agree that this would work with small adjustments only. I can't even imagine how you would do a major neck reset for something like this.

DanSavage - 2014-08-30 1:12 AM

Wow, arumako!

You're going all out as a luthier, aren't you?


"Luthier," hmmm, that sounds nice, but it'll take another 10 years or so before I can start using a title like that! Truth is, "a real luthier" guy did this "1619-4 Rebuild" thing that just inspired me to no end...

I'm amazed by Ovation's engineering ingenuity. I sure am glad they didn't make these guitars like the Ibanez I'm working on!
Top of the page Bottom of the page
FlySig
Posted 2014-08-30 4:25 PM (#493834 - in reply to #493822)
Subject: Re: Twin 1861 Neck Resets and...



Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 4044

Location: Utah
Arumako, nice work!

Edited by FlySig 2014-08-30 4:27 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
SOBeach
Posted 2014-08-30 5:16 PM (#493835 - in reply to #493822)
Subject: RE: Twin 1861 Neck Resets and...


Joined:
April 2010
Posts: 823

Location: sitting at my computer

arumako -  So...that's what the "Kaman bar" is. I've always wondered...

You might find this interesting then...

 

1977 Kaman Bar Patent

http://www.ovationtribute.com/Ovation_Guitars_Patents/Ovation_1977_Kaman_Bar_Patent/Ovation_1977_Kaman_Bar_Patent.html

 

Keep up the nice work! 

 
Top of the page Bottom of the page
DanSavage
Posted 2014-08-30 8:08 PM (#493846 - in reply to #493833)
Subject: RE: Twin 1861 Neck Resets and...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2316

Location: Pueblo West, CO
Ha ha! Thanks for the kind words.

A luthier is just someone who works on stringed instruments, so by that yardstick you certainly are qualified to call yourself that.

Because I work on stringed instruments, I'm a luthier, too. But, until I've got 10 years or so experience, I would never call myself a 'master' luthier.

Truth be told, the 1619 was my biggest challenge yet. I applied a lot of educated guesses about what to do, and I believe I just got lucky that they all came together to make a great sounding, nice looking guitar.

If I can get the same results on my next guitar, then I might be inclined to think I'm developing some real skills.

Yes, Ovation guitars are well-engineered, but as with any long-term manufacturing, the engineering was evolutionary and not all their ideas were good ones, such as using epoxy to glue on the necks instead of hide glue, like what is used on other fine guitars such as Martins. IMO, the best way to mount a neck is to bolt it on, which is what Ovation eventually started doing.

Dan

arumako - 2014-08-30 1:57 PM

"Luthier," hmmm, that sounds nice, but it'll take another 10 years or so before I can start using a title like that! Truth is, "a real luthier" guy did this "1619-4 Rebuild" thing that just inspired me to no end...

I'm amazed by Ovation's engineering ingenuity. I sure am glad they didn't make these guitars like the Ibanez I'm working on!


Top of the page Bottom of the page
tpa
Posted 2014-08-31 7:31 AM (#493862 - in reply to #493833)
Subject: RE: Twin 1861 Neck Resets and...


Joined:
December 2004
Posts: 566

Location: Denmark

arumako - 2014-08-30 3:57 PM
So...that's what the "Kaman bar" is. ...


Yes until I studied the patents drawings I didn't really understand it myself. Supplementary to the link posted by SOBeach you may find the slightly newer patent interesting and more representative for your generation of guitar. One difference in the principle being the bearing surface between neck and body being similar to your 1861. The 1861 seems to have one screw fixing the neck to the body where the illustration shows two. I believe thats due to the spatial restictions of the shallow bowl. My medium bowl model has two fixation screws.

In a conventional design neck the wood is providing the mechanical strength of the neck and in the Kaman bar neck the Kaman bar is the main structural element. Here and there wood is fairly thin. The 5 layer laminated design of the Ovation Kaman bar necks is more a matter of appearance than a matter of stability and strength than in conventional necks.

Link: www.freepatentsonline.com/4200023.pdf



Edited by tpa 2014-08-31 7:37 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
arumako
Posted 2014-08-31 9:06 AM (#493866 - in reply to #493862)
Subject: RE: Twin 1861 Neck Resets and...



Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 1034

Location: Yokohama, Japan
Thanks for the kind comments FlySig, SoBeach, tpa and DanSavage...and the links to the patent information...just fascinating stuff!

tpa - 2014-08-30 9:31 PM

arumako - 2014-08-30 3:57 PM
So...that's what the "Kaman bar" is. ...


Yes until I studied the patents drawings I didn't really understand it myself. Supplementary to the link posted by SOBeach you may find the slightly newer patent interesting and more representative for your generation of guitar. One difference in the principle being the bearing surface between neck and body being similar to your 1861. The 1861 seems to have one screw fixing the neck to the body where the illustration shows two. I believe thats due to the spatial restictions of the shallow bowl. My medium bowl model has two fixation screws.

In a conventional design neck the wood is providing the mechanical strength of the neck and in the Kaman bar neck the Kaman bar is the main structural element. Here and there wood is fairly thin. The 5 layer laminated design of the Ovation Kaman bar necks is more a matter of appearance than a matter of stability and strength than in conventional necks.

Link: www.freepatentsonline.com/4200023.pdf



Yup, there is definitely a limited amount of space in the super shallow bowl of the 1861. The lyrachord bowl is molded with these cool "fins" (for lack of a better term) that provide rigidity and enable just one bolt (connecting the heal to the body) and glue (connecting the fingerboard to the soundboard) to provide structural integrity of the neck joint (even under heavy loads). The newer patent says the Kaman bar is made from aluminum or magnesium - very rigid and cool design. I think this must also provide consistency and accuracy in the way the truss-rod works because my son's 1861 and my 1861 were easy to adjust, and they responded very consistently to a, quarter turn, half turn, etc...

I can't see how I'm ever going to return to "normal life" after all this excitement!

Edited by arumako 2014-08-31 9:12 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
tpa
Posted 2014-08-31 10:01 AM (#493869 - in reply to #493822)
Subject: RE: Twin 1861 Neck Resets and...


Joined:
December 2004
Posts: 566

Location: Denmark

You can also check the other guitar related patents mentioning Charles H. Kaman by this Link. The cross section drawings in some of the older (pre-Kaman bar) patents very well gives a view of the "old" truss rod neck. Technically interesting reading.



Edited by tpa 2014-08-31 10:13 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page]
Jump to forum :
Search this forum
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread

This message board and website is not sponsored or affiliated with Ovation® Guitars in any way.
Registered to: The Ovation Fanclub™ Copyright (c) 2001
free counters
(Delete all cookies set by this site)