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Celebrity Deluxe CC247 Neck Reset
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Member Communities -> Bottom Feeding Luthiery Guild | Message format |
DanSavage |
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Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315 Location: Pueblo West, CO | Nice job. It looks great. Very clean work. | ||
marenostrum |
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Joined: August 2007 Posts: 1008 Location: Tuscany, Italy | DanSavage - 2015-10-30 8:58 PM Nice job. It looks great. Very clean work. +1 | ||
arumako |
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Joined: October 2012 Posts: 1034 Location: Yokohama, Japan | So...the progress has slowed down to a grinding crawl. However, still trying to devote a little bit of time here and there for a Thanksgiving Project Completion! And my son, somehow discovered this secret project...man, how do they "find me out" like that? Lol, anyway, I was able to squeeze in some time to get the main neck block space routed into the filled neck joint area of the bowl. Needed a small jig to keep my router straight and true... This little jig is clamped into place (sorry about the low-res photo) through the epaulets. Clear acrylic jigs enable me to see my work more accurately. The aluminum bars are guides that keep my router (Dremel) in-line. I practiced a bunch on some wood blanks, but this Smooth-on stuff is pretty hard. I had to set my Dremel to the highest setting and go slow. I had forgotten how unforgiving a router can be and on my first pass, I tried to take-off too much and lost control of the tool and almost hacked this poor CC247 into oblivion! Fortunately, the damage was minimal, and I was able to continue without major incident...whew, scary! Once my nerves settled down, I got back to work...shallow, slow, very slow cuts. What a dummy, that's what I made the jig for! talk about an amatuer! After final sanding and smoothing the neck block fit just right. You can tell the alignment is much better in this next pic. It also shows how far the alignment was off for the original assembly. No wonder why the previous owners neck reset failed. So, my next challenge is to cut the mortise into this little block. I'll need to make another jig for that, and also think of a good clamping strategy to make sure I get the neck secure. The bolt-on neck configuration is really going to make a world of a difference! As Christmas season approaches, I'm thinking this might be a good "O" for a Christmas performance! After that, I know my son is going to ask if he can have it! I'm thinking I'll offer a 1 to 1 fair trade for his black 1861! Would that be taking unfair advantage of my son? Naw..., whoohoo...getting closer... Edited by arumako 2015-11-13 9:34 PM | ||
BanjoJ |
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Joined: September 2012 Posts: 811 Location: Thredbo, NSW, Australia | Great stuff arumako. I'm really enjoying this and learning heaps as we go. | ||
arumako |
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Joined: October 2012 Posts: 1034 Location: Yokohama, Japan | BanjoJ - 2015-11-13 1:43 PM Great stuff arumako. I'm really enjoying this and learning heaps as we go. Thanks BanjoJ! Couldn't get any sleep tonight, so took a few steps forward again. Decided to finish up the neck joint completely. Per DanSavages advice, I went ahead and used an Auger bit to drill the insert holes and installed the steel inserts into the neck tenon joint... I made sure to squeeze the tenon joint with clamps as I screwed in the inserts, but the joint cracked ever so slightly when I installed the lower insert anyway! Oops. The crack was pretty small so I filled it with super low viscosity CA glue... Everything lined up pretty well... Finished the block and joint with some light sanding and flat black finish (used polyurethane automobile touch-up paint). Finally, verified bolt length and alignment... It looks like 3.0cm bolts are going to work the best. Cool! Now, if I could just route the mortise and drill the holes in the bowl correctly, this is all going to come together rather nicely! Okay, time to catch some Z's... Edited by arumako 2015-11-16 11:37 AM | ||
DanSavage |
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Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315 Location: Pueblo West, CO | Looking good. Almost there. | ||
arumako |
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Joined: October 2012 Posts: 1034 Location: Yokohama, Japan | DanSavage - 2015-11-16 11:05 PM Looking good. Almost there. Thanks for always being so encouraging DanSavage! It's a holiday over here in Japan, and it's a sprint to the finish line... Before routing the mortise, I needed to drill the neck bolt holes in the bowl. With concise caliper measurements of the neck block, I made a simple foldable drilling jig out of cardboard with clear markings (on both sides) for the center lines and bolt holes... taped it on to the bowl with precise positioning... folded it over... verified alignment... setup the Dremmel with proper alignment... verified alignment, and drilled small accurate guide holes for the Auger bit (actually, I realized latter that Dansavage said "Forstner bit" but I actually went out and mistakenly bought Auger bits, oops)... I finished the drilling with a 6.5mm Augers bit, and removed the cardboard jig... proceeded to the routing... there wasn't a lot of flat space for a routing jig; and so, I decided to go with a freehand route using the routing guide from my circle cutter... set-up the tool... and cut the mortise...go slow and shallow, slow and shallow... after many passes, I finally got it done. I'm pretty happy with my first ever mortise joint. Then the neck heel needed to be shaped for final fitting, the sandpaper is reinforced on the back with thick clear packing tape. With the neck in proper position, I pull the tape out from the heel and sand it down to the exact shape of the bowl... checked by dry fitting and repeated...warning, patience tester here... then checked my neck angle. Ahhh, perfect... and proceeded to final fitting and gluing. I had to do a bunch of clamping dry runs to ensure this was going to work, okay. Man, these Elite type guitar necks are hard to secure with clamping (oops, sorry about the "out of focus" picture)! I used ZAP 30 minute epoxy (from my 1117-4 project) to glue the neck to the sound board (no glue on the heel of the neck please!). The neck was secured tightly and once the clamps were in place, I loosened the bolts just a tad. Everything fit just perfectly and the neck is now completely in line! Yay! And now, for the treacherous 72 hour wait! Don't touch the guitar, Ken. Don't touch the guitar! Can't wait to string her up and give her a spin! I'm not quite done yet; but man, I am so thankful for all of your help and encouragement! OFC/BFLG you are so awesome! Thank you, thank you, Domo Arigatou! Edited by arumako 2015-11-22 7:54 PM | ||
2wheeldrummer |
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Joined: February 2014 Posts: 704 Location: moline,illinois | That is amazing work all the way through,I doubt I'd have the patience you've shown but the end result has to make you feel great. | ||
DanSavage |
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Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315 Location: Pueblo West, CO | Wow! Real precision work here, Ken. I'm not sure the Zpoxy needs 72 hours to fully cure like Hysol does. When you're done, you'll have one of the few Celebritys in the world with a bolt-on neck. Dan | ||
marenostrum |
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Joined: August 2007 Posts: 1008 Location: Tuscany, Italy | Very nice job Arumako. My compliments. Amazing work. Thanks for sharing. | ||
tpa |
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Joined: December 2004 Posts: 565 Location: Denmark | arumako - 2015-11-22 7:47 PM... and so, I decided to go with a freehand route ... Cool. What is btw. the idea of gluing the fretboard to the top, if I may ask?Edited by tpa 2015-11-23 5:01 PM | ||
DanSavage |
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Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315 Location: Pueblo West, CO | You probably wouldn't notice that the fretboard isn't glued down until you tried to play the upper frets, then you'd get hollow notes. I'm not sure which models, but some Ovations with bolt-on necks have a support underneath the fretboard extension which allows the neck to be removed without breaking the glue joint and supports the fretboard extension so it doesn't get hollow sound when the strings are fretted there. | ||
d'ovation |
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Joined: December 2003 Posts: 848 Location: Canada | I thought that most of the ovations are supposed to have floating fretboards. Or are these just some specific models? And thanks for the report arumako... Well written and very informational. | ||
arumako |
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Joined: October 2012 Posts: 1034 Location: Yokohama, Japan | Thanks for the kind remarks, folks... DanSavage - 2015-11-22 11:14 PM I'm not sure the Zpoxy needs 72 hours to fully cure like Hysol does. I went back and checked Pacer's spec sheet and it says 24 hours. Woohoo...but, I think I'm going to wait 36 hours just in case. I just need to touch-up some areas on the bowl with a matching brown paint, add some shims where the M6 bolts meet the bowl to prevent any damage to the bowl, put new foam on the manhole cover, string her up and take her for a spin ..hurry hurry hurry... tpa - 2015-11-23 6:59 AM Cool. What is btw. the idea of gluing the fretboard to the top, if I may ask? Exactly what DanSavage said. I suspect hard debris stuck between the fret board and soundboard could cause some serious buzzing. FWIW, I've heard the 1537s and 1581s have floating fret boards, but a search on the net doesn't seem to provide any conclusive guides to model numbers and the like. DanSavage previously posted a link to an interesting article in Guitar Player that talked a little bit about floating fret boards on LX models here... http://www.guitarplayer.com/miscellaneous/1139/ovation-lx-series/19... | ||
DanSavage |
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Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315 Location: Pueblo West, CO | Cool article. It contains lots of technical details: 1) Advanced Neck System. An extended support block under the fingerboard from the 14th fret where it meets the body almost to the end of the fingerboard. It sits in a pocket that’s built into the backside under the top and from there it’s attached to a new block in the bowl. What it gives us is a surface from the top of the fingerboard to the back of the bowl that’s all integrated. There’s no room for any movement. We also put some graphite strips in the neck to add stability without adding weight. A 2-way tension rod that is lower profile. We’ve taken some mass out. We can make the neck profile a little smaller for players who want that. The Advanced Neck System is a 2-way tension rod with support paths attached under the fingerboard and at the heel with bolts. It’s machine fit—Nothing is glued. 2) LX Brace System Used a laser vibrometer to test and measure how the top moves. Identifid places in the top that vibrated more and places that vibrated less and where it gets phase cancellation—just an abundance of information. Lots of data from this machine but unless you know how to analyze it, it’s useless. Found a way to analyze the tops to maximize the response. The result was the scalloped X-brace pattern that’s in the LX series. 3) Thinner finish. Polyester finish in top. At one time the finish thickness was running between 30 and 35/1000 of an inch. It's been reduced over the past five years to the point where it's now between seven and 10/1000. | ||
tpa |
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Joined: December 2004 Posts: 565 Location: Denmark | I see the advantages of a good fretboard support. It just seems to me that the fretboard extension is fairly well supported by the (invisible) chunk of wood extending into the body cavity. It hardly does anything to the vibration of the top as there is no free vibrating top there on this type of guitar. But it does affect the work involved if you need to remove the neck again - like if you (in far future) need to correct intonation or adjust neck angle. The gap could also be sealed with something else - a piece of felt or a suitable rubbery sealant compound. | ||
seesquare |
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Joined: November 2002 Posts: 3611 Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | Hide glue. Steam it, & it comes right apart. | ||
DanSavage |
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Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315 Location: Pueblo West, CO | tpa - 2015-11-24 9:12 AM I see the advantages of a good fretboard support. It just seems to me that the fretboard extension is fairly well supported by the (invisible) chunk of wood extending into the body cavity. Actually, you do bring up a good point. Unlike most guitars, Some Ovations do have a chunk of wood attached to the neck and the fretboard extension. On those Ovations, you probably wouldn't need to glue the fretboard extension to the top. But, for those Os which do not have the chunk of wood, you still need to glue the fretboard extension to the top to prevent the hollow sound. | ||
arumako |
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Joined: October 2012 Posts: 1034 Location: Yokohama, Japan | Well, I strung up the CC247, adjusted the truss rod, and left it for several hours to see how the neck settled in. Don't particularly care for these small radius and thin 1&11/16" (@ nut) necks. It feels too cramped up... like they were really going after the electric guitarists with these Asian models. Anyway, I really like regular gauge strings on all my acoustics (usually D'Addario EJ12 80/20 Bronze) and the action at the 12 fret is right at 2mm... The neck went on really straight... Looking through the epaulets, you can tell something is different about this Celebrity! The bolts really secure the neck in place quite reliably. For some, it may seem to make the guitar a tad heavier, but it is hardly noticeable. I'm kind of getting fond of this GS color scheme too. The regular gauge strings usually tend to give the guitar a thicker voice, but this Celebrity rings like a bell even with regular gauge strings. She's also quite a canon, and I really like the OP24+ pre-amp as it provides mellower sound options. As it turns out, I'm going to need to run through and do a general tune up as the nut needs to be cut down just a bit, and general fret maintenance is needed. But at this point the intonation is in order; and while she's no Nakao USA NH Elite, she still sounds pretty good. Just really surprised about the "ringy" bell like sound of the guitar. I wonder if its because of the laminated top? Not that the mid and bass punch aren't there, just a real emphasis on the high-frequency resonance - unexpected... Anyway, thanks for all of your encouragement and comments, I'll definitely be using this for a Christmas performance. Oh, and Happy Thanksgiving to all of you at the OFC! So thankful to be a part of this cool round back community! Edited by arumako 2015-11-25 9:47 AM | ||
BanjoJ |
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Joined: September 2012 Posts: 811 Location: Thredbo, NSW, Australia | Wow! Outstanding. Another guitar saved from the scrap heap. Thank you so much for sharing this journey with us. | ||
DanSavage |
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Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315 Location: Pueblo West, CO | Nice job, Ken. You might try PBs instead of the 80/20s. I tried 80/20s on my mid-bowl laminated top O and found they didn't sound as good as the PBs. | ||
DetlefMichel |
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Joined: May 2011 Posts: 755 Location: Muenster/Germany | Wonderful guitar, great job,MTBBWY. | ||
arumako |
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Joined: October 2012 Posts: 1034 Location: Yokohama, Japan | Thanks again everybody! DanSavage - 2015-11-25 2:53 PM Nice job, Ken. You might try PBs instead of the 80/20s. I tried 80/20s on my mid-bowl laminated top O and found they didn't sound as good as the PBs. I'll definitely give the Phosphor Bronze a shot. I've heard that laminate tops are harder and tend to intensify the higher frequencies. I've played and heard some decent CS257 and CS247, but none of them sounded this "chimey" I know some folks prefer the bell like ringing tone, but I find darker subtle tones to be more expressive. All a matter of personal preference really... Aside from the fret areas that need some maintenance, this guitar has pretty impressive sustain as well. Although no match for a USA produced O, I'm convinced a properly assembled Asian O can be very very good indeed. By the way, DetlefMichel, what does MTBBWY mean? May The "?B?" Be With You??? | ||
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