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| Could anyone tell me how the deep bowl nylon string Ovation acoustics compare in terms of volume
and projection with regular nylon string classical guitars please? (i.e. when played unplugged)
Edited by Gibbon 2020-03-04 2:41 PM
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Location: northern Georgia | I mainly play classical on nylon strings, and have 3 nice acoustic classicals: A 1972 Manuel Fraguela, handmade classical with a a Port Orford cedar top, a 1967 Taurus Model 59 with a red cedar top that was meant for advanced students, and an Ovation 1763 deep bowl cutaway, also with a red cedar top. The Fraquela is noticeably the loudest of the 3 for the same amount of force from the fingers on the strings. It has a little more treble overtones than most classicals, but not as much as a flamenco guitar; it also has very good bass response. I can get the standard classical tone by playing a little farther from the bridge to get it more mellow. The Taurus has a more typical classical guitar voice, it is not as efficient as the Fraguela, and the bass fundamental tones are not as prominent as on the Fraguela. The Ovation volume is not as much as the Fraquela, it is probably a little bit less than the Taurus. The tonal voice of the Ovation is sort of in-between the other two, in terms of treble overtones it is a little bit brighter than the Taurus, but the bass fundamentals are similar to the Fraguela. The greatest difference is in dynamic response - it seems that the Ovation sustains a bit longer than the other two, so the notes don't have the same "punch". For me, this may actually be good for some types of music, but in general the Fraguela and Taurus are probably better for most of the standard classical repertoire. One thing I have noticed, on the bass strings of the Ovation, if I use more force on them, it keeps getting louder and louder -- the Taurus tends to flatten out in response. Another good thing in the Ovation response, it has very even response all over the fingerboard. It does not have any "wolf" tones that are noticeably louder than nearby notes.
I believe the main thing affecting the Ovation is that the top thickness is significantly more than a nice classical. My Fraquela's top is on the order of 0.090", the Taurus about 0.110" and the Ovation supposedly tapers down to 0.120 (I can't measure this at the sound hole due to the Ovation rosette being in the way) - Dan Savage probably has data on that. Top thickness, density, and stiffness have very strong effects on the response of a guitar. In addition, the Ovation body is possibly a little too wide for the most efficient sound production for a classical. My Fraguela is a bit wider than most at 14 5/8" across the lower bout, the Taurus is typical at 14 1/2", and the Ovation is 15 5/8" -- it uses the same bowl as the Ovation standard (not parlor) steel strings. That means to tune the top to the same flex response, the Ovation's top and braces also have to be a little thicker than for a normal classical. Parts of the classical guitar world can be very tradition bound, but even builders doing modern top construction (new materials, sandwich tops, carbon fiber reinforced bracing, etc,) rarely go much bigger than 14 1/2".
For me, where the Ovation earns its keep is when you plug it in. Through a good acoustic amp (I have an Ultrasound AG-100) it sounds very natural, with good bass response and treble, and it is very resistant to feedback. My 1763 has the white top, so it would be nice for an amplified wedding gig. I have a Pick-Up the World Model 40 soundboard transducer under the bridge of the Taurus, and I have to carefully set up notch filters to keep it from feeding back even at moderate volume. The Ovation is much easier to set up. In fact, the main reason I got the Ovation 1763 was to have something with a cutaway and good acoustic tone when amplified. My Gibson Chet Atkins CEC is essentially a solid body nylon string electric guitar, and doesn't really have the same tonal feel as an acoustic. |
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Thanks Keldon for your very detailed helpful reply. I play American country/bluegrass style, mostly with thumb pick and fingers -- along the lines of Doc Watson, Merle Travis and Jerry Reed. One thing I was particularly interested in was your comment about the responsiveness of the bass strings on the Ovation. This is good news for the style I play, and I just don't feel satisfied without the sense of a strong bass at bottom of everything! |
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Location: Texas | keldon85 reply is spot on...Acoustically, imo, Ovation nylons do not match a good classical wood counterpart acoustically. Plugged in...there is no need to look any further. After years of trying to find the right O nylon... I gave up and went with a Ramirez.
Keldon thanks for taking the time for your response. That question is asked periodically. Your answer should be an auto reference point. |
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Location: northern Georgia | After going through the BFLG and finding one of Dan Savage's remarkable rebuilding projects of an Ovation 1113 classical for Paul Moody, I should add a bit to my previous response. Dan measured the standard top thickness as 0.140" near the neck tapering to 0.100" below the sound hole on the 1113, which was Sitka spruce. Ovation later used red cedar (as on my 1763) which is a lighter wood, but I have not seen thickness measurements on those tops. When Dan rebuilt the 1113, he used 0.120-0.096" (a significant reduction) torrefied Sitka spruce. Dan also reduced the cross section of the transverse braces from 1/2" to 7/16", he also did not tuck the transverse braces into the rim as done originally, this would also let the top flex more freely. As a result, the top was noticeably more responsive, and Paul was happy with the result. So, the potential is there for a good acoustic sound from an Ovation classical, if you are re-topping an instrument.
Somewhat related, shortly after 2000 Martin briefly had a partnership with the late Thomas Humphrey, a well known builder of fine classical instruments in NYC, and produced a model based on Humphrey's "Millennium" design. However, Martin apparently did not make the tops as thin as Humphrey wanted, and the tone was a bit lackluster. Humphrey actually thinned and refinished the tops of several of these for a few of his customers, greatly improving their response. So it isn't just Ovation that is afraid of doing what is necessary to make a responsive classical instrument in its factories. |
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Location: SoCal | Only one thing wrong above. The top of my 1113 is adirondack spruce, not sitka. However I did play my guitar next to the Chapin 1613 that Dan retopped. That had a sitka spruce top. Neither Dan nor I could tell that much difference. Both sounded great.
And I should point out that 4 years after the new thinner top on my guitar, with extra hard tension strings, no problems, not sign of the top lifting.
DDGW.............. Dan Do Good Work......
Edited by moody, p.i. 2020-03-08 9:45 PM
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Location: Yokohama, Japan | moody, p.i. - 2020-03-08 11:44 AM
And I should point out that 4 years after the new thinner top on my guitar, with extra hard tension strings, no problems, not sign of the top lifting.
DDGW.............. Dan Do Good Work......
DDGW indeed!
Btw, moody, p.i., I was intrigued by your comment "extra hard tension strings". For my CS249-4Y rebuild you recommended Savarez Corum 504J high tension strings. Tried them and liked them, but wanted a tighter feel and just put on D'Addario Pro Arte EJ44 "extra hard" onto my CS249 last night. The extra hard tension strings definitely feel better on my Celebrity nylon. Will be getting a better feel for the acoustic and electric sounds of the strings later today. Would you mind sharing which Savarez strings you're referring too? Can't seem to get clear direction from a web search and the text on the packaging is French... Thanks!
Edited by arumako 2020-03-08 10:28 PM
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Location: northern Georgia | In terms of strings, I have pretty much the same experience with my 1763. When I got it from Elderly, it had a normal tension set of strings that were a bit lifeless. I did not know if they were just old (no real signs of wear) or just not enough tension. I replaced those with a set of Augustine Blue Imperials (their highest tension at the time) and that helped. The tone improved again when I put on some D'Addario EJ51s (currently), but the trebles are still a bit subdued compared to the basses. Next set I am going to try one with the "fluorocarbon polymer" trebles (a bit denser, should have more high overtones) to see if that helps. I have used "extra hard" strings in the past on other instruments, but the trebles tend to be a bit dull in comparison (especially the 3rd) to normal or hard tension sets. Besides the D'Addario EJ46FF, I am looking at Savarez 500AJ Corum Alliance, and Hannabach Carbon Trebles (for only the first 3 strings) for the next time I change strings on the 1763. I tried a similar type of string (Thomastik-Infeld Classic C) on the Fraquela, but the "carbon" trebles were too bright on that instrument.
One thing to be aware of is scale length. Many Ovation classicals (but not all) have a 665mm scale length, which is a bit longer than normal. Other builders have used this as well (Ramirez in the 70s, my Fraguela is 660mm), but there is a tendency now to use 650mm or even a little less. I suspect Ovation did that to better drive their larger than normal top, but I have not seen any memos on the Tribute site (yet) that mention that.
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Location: SoCal | Arumako, You're right. The Savarez 500AJ Corum Alliance strings are high tension, not extra hard. My mistake. I started using them on the advice of Paul Templeman. They have a strong treble response. I like 'em...... |
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Location: northern Georgia | Digging through the Ovation historical memos on the Tribute site, I found this in a memo by Jim Rickard on Dec. 6, 1973 about a discussion that he had with Charlie Kaman. He stated that "It was reported that the 1116 and 1113 style of bracing seemed to produce a mellower sound from the strings on the treble side and a brighter sound on the bass side".
That is the type of bracing used on most Ovation nylon string instruments - the 1116 used the standard Ovation 25.25" scale, while the 1113 went with the longer 26 3/16"(665mm) scale. This tone balance of the double fan bracing with the tops they were using was recognized and accepted early on. From experience with my 1763, the "mellower" treble is really more a generally lower volume of the treble strings rather than a reduced proportion of treble overtones. I am going to try the Corum Alliance strings to see if I can get a better treble response out of this. |
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Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | Dan's a big help, sometimes in ways one doesn't anticipate. Here is a picture of the parlor he re-built for me with Sinker Redwood sitting beside my Custom Redwood 1713-X. When he built my nylon parlor, I was certain it would provide a marvelous counterpoint to the deep-bowl 1713. And I was right. (Don't you love it when a plan comes together? .... My son was watching A-Team all afternoon yesterday. Sorry ...) Both guitars are loads of fun! 
The 1713 has an alarming amount of punch, and especially bass due to it's A-bracing. It can even stand up to moderate flat-picking when strung with high-tension strings, and I have to be careful with it when playing at choir rehearsal as it can overwhelm the other guitars if I get too aggressive, especially with its bass strings. The parlor obviously can't match the volume of the 1713's deep bowl, but has a very balanced tone that is just a joy to play on the couch or deck. It's not over-powering, but it is just plain nice! However, a bit of information from Dan carried over to the 1713 in a way I had not anticipated: He told me that he originally thought the parlor was a bit bass-heavy (It's worth noting that it's bracing pattern is similar to an A-brace.), so he put a mixed set of strings on it; standard tension basses, and high-tension trebles. I had never thought of mixing tensions before. He had no inkling of how bass-heavy my 1713 could be, but after hearing the parlor for myself, it was obviously worth investing a few experimental bucks in a mixed set for my Redwood. I tell you now, it made all the difference in the world! Finger-picked or flat-picked, the tones evened out immediately but kept its acoustic volume. And if I happen to want more bass, I simply ratchet up the attack on those strings and it rings right out. The two guitars sound different, but as we all know, that's not a bad thing. And I admit, that when I feel like playing nylon, I sometimes have a bit of a struggle deciding which one to pick up. |
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Location: northern Georgia | Patch,
Your post forced me to search through the site for the history of you 1713. Apparently you got it from the custom shop in 2010, and was a bit surprised that they used A-bracing on it. Did they change the A-bracing in some way, such as shaving down the bracing height or changing the fan angles compared to what they used on the A-braced steel strings? I am thinking about getting one of the "project" instruments from Al and rebuilding it with a new neck and top to convert it into a special nylon string guitar. I was thinking about adapting the bracing patterns from either the Ramirez or Fleta blueprints that I have, but experimenting with A-bracing is enticing. |
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Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | keldon85 - 2020-04-19 1:22 PM Patch, Your post forced me to search through the site for the history of you 1713. Apparently you got it from the custom shop in 2010, and was a bit surprised that they used A-bracing on it. Did they change the A-bracing in some way, such as shaving down the bracing height or changing the fan angles compared to what they used on the A-braced steel strings? I am thinking about getting one of the "project" instruments from Al and rebuilding it with a new neck and top to convert it into a special nylon string guitar. I was thinking about adapting the bracing patterns from either the Ramirez or Fleta blueprints that I have, but experimenting with A-bracing is enticing. Actually, I wasn't surprised about the A-bracing at all. It was, and still is, my favorite pattern from Ovation. I had ordered other guitars before, and John Budny and Kim Keller both knew my preference. So when I stuck a mirror in there to see, I was more pleased than surprised. So as far as I know, it is good ol' standard A-braced, and it sounds different from every other O-nylon I've ever played, in a good way. And FWIW, it is utterly mind-boggling to me that I've owned this guitar for 10 years already! Where'd a whole, freakin' decade GO! |
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Volume of deep bowl nylon string acoustics?
