My Custom Balladeer (1981 1112-1 acoustic only) has not had any truss rod adjustments made to it for years (and years and years). The action is in the average range, though the saddle is ALL the way down. And while there is zero buzz on any string at any fret, the clearance between the bridge and strings is so tiny I can’t even measure it. If I were to raise the saddle to the ‘normal’ height, there would be surely enough space between the fingerboard and strings to park a Chevy.
My question… is this a case of “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it”.. or is it actually broke?? John Bundy was kind enough to send me the proper rod wrench (this model adjusts through the sound hole), and next time I re-string it I would like to shim the saddle to a normal height, but I’m not so sure about the incremental moves on how much to turn the rod to compensate the action back down, or the resting time between adjustments.
I have made rod adjustments (headstock access) on beater guitars before that I didn’t really care much about, but they were not Ovations and this is definitely not a beater. I could send it to the shop for this, I know, but I would rather do it here so I will have the firsthand knowledge of what it takes, and also so that I can know for the future on this particular guitar. Experienced input would be much appreciated. Thank you.
Posted 2016-04-05 8:35 PM (#524428 - in reply to #524426) Subject: Re: 1112 Custom Balladeer Truss Rod Adjustment..
Joined: September 2006 Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR
First off, a truss rod adjustment will NOT adjust the height at the 12th Fret. Truss Rod adjustments are for relief around the 7th fret. If the strings are laying upon the wood of the bridge you either need a neck reset... Or to trim the bridge.
You can take a sanding block and sand the front of the bridge before the Saddle to give you some clearance between the strings and the wood of the bridge. Someone did that to my 1121 (1970-ish).
This is only for information purposes because If it ain't broke Don't Fix It.
And if you want instructions for the Truss Rod Adjustment:
Posted 2016-04-05 9:06 PM (#524429 - in reply to #524426) Subject: Re: 1112 Custom Balladeer Truss Rod Adjustment..
Joined: February 2016 Posts: 1802
Location: When??
Thanks for replying Arthur. Are you saying that I shouldn't really be concerned that the saddle is not at all shimmed up? Also, what is involved with a neck reset? What does it do? Where is is reset from? Major surgery?
Posted 2016-04-05 9:42 PM (#524431 - in reply to #524426) Subject: Re: 1112 Custom Balladeer Truss Rod Adjustment..
Joined: September 2006 Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR
Also, what is involved with a neck reset?
You remove the neck and put it back on correctly.
Major surgery?
Yup.
A 1981 might have a bolt-on neck, but it is still major surgery on a center hole guitar.
The fingerboard is attached to the top, so there is glue involved.
And if it doesn't have a bolt-on neck... heat, steam, and force is involved.
At the MotherShip they would either destroy the bowl or the neck...
And then attach a new one to whichever end they saved.
But SeeSquare, MWoody, DanSavage, Arumaku, and others could give you pointers if you wanted to do it yourself. But once again... If it ain't broke Don't Fix It.
You could buy a cheap Celebrity to practice on.
(Do not buy a $500 Ovation to start painting. )
Posted 2016-04-05 10:49 PM (#524433 - in reply to #524426) Subject: Re: 1112 Custom Balladeer Truss Rod Adjustment..
Joined: February 2016 Posts: 1802
Location: When??
Thank you again, Arthur! Good description.. and.. good advice! For now I am sticking with the "aint broke" thing since the guitar plays and sounds pretty well as it is.
However.. I may [may] tinker with the truss rod next time I re-string it. So another question if you don't mind-- I watched the video and it looks like he is handling the guitar like Tuesday's leftovers in a quite matter-of-fact way.. whereas I think I would be a little more gentle.. but if the rod is adjusted with undesirable results, will it typically adjust back to where it started by turning it back with the exact amount of turning in the opposite direction? It seemed that way in the video but, then again, that guitar looks to be a whole lot newer than mine with possibly a rod that is less age-set in the wood.
Posted 2016-04-06 12:53 AM (#524435 - in reply to #524426) Subject: Re: 1112 Custom Balladeer Truss Rod Adjustment..
Joined: December 2015 Posts: 287
Location: Katmandu
It's best to start out by measuring what height your guitar's string action is at the 1st and 12th fret (a string action ruler is handy for that) and post the results here, so we can compare string actions and have a basis to decide on whether or not there's a need for you to act.
I always found the original Ovation Owner's manual to be helpful in that regard as it has the specifications for string action for all their guitars as well as easy-to-follow instructions on how to adjust the truss rod if need be. As OMA said, a truss rod adjustment sets merely the relief for the neck at and around the 7th fret. If you're doing the truss rod check as described in the manual, there should be the slightest little bit of clearance at the 5th fret.
Here are the acoustic specs for string action (by Gibson as I don't have my Ovation manual at hand right now). The string action of your Ovation should never exceed those since Ovations usually have, or can have if set up right, top-notch "e-guitar" action.
Gibson's acoustic specifications:
1st fret treble side - 1/64" (0.396875mm)
1st fret bass side - 2/64" (0.79375mm)
12th fret treble side - 5/64" (1.98438mm)
12th fret bass side - 7/64" (2.77812mm)
Posted 2016-04-06 1:11 AM (#524436 - in reply to #524426) Subject: Re: 1112 Custom Balladeer Truss Rod Adjustment..
Joined: September 2006 Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR
Truss Rod adjustment... Non-technical version:
I put a capo on the first fret and my finger on the 13th fret.
I twang the string and there should be very little clearance but no buzz.
Simple, Lazy, Effective.
Posted 2016-04-06 9:52 AM (#524438 - in reply to #524426) Subject: Re: 1112 Custom Balladeer Truss Rod Adjustment..
Joined: February 2016 Posts: 1802
Location: When??
Leonardmccoy.. thank you for posting the specs. I would imagine them to be fairly standard across all brands, though I will continue to look for a specific Ovation manual and listing as well. At present the action is 'average' and acceptable.. though during the next string change I would like to raise the saddle to a 'normal' level as it is currently shimmless and all the way down. At that point I will take the string measurement, which will undoubtedly be much higher than it is now, and then revisit the prospect of rod and other adjustment corrections based on the result.
Thank you both for your input. I will keep it all on tap as I move forward.
And Arthur.. I like that you said "twang" instead of "pluck" :-)
Posted 2016-04-06 6:35 PM (#524445 - in reply to #524433) Subject: Re: 1112 Custom Balladeer Truss Rod Adjustment..
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2317
Location: Pueblo West, CO
Love O Fair - 2016-04-05 8:49 PM
...but if the rod is adjusted with undesirable results, will it typically adjust back to where it started by turning it back with the exact amount of turning in the opposite direction?
Yes. If you don't like what the TR adjustment did you can turn it back to what it was before and the neck should return to it's original relief.
Posted 2016-04-10 3:16 PM (#524550 - in reply to #524445) Subject: Re: 1112 Custom Balladeer Truss Rod Adjustment..
Joined: August 2002 Posts: 599
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA
Hi, Dan,
Mike Seguin here. I always found the factory action on my Ovation guitars just a shade too high for my liking, because I'm a jazz player. Rather than fool around with the truss rod, and yes, Dan, I'm of the old, "If it aint broke, don't fix it!", school myself, being Canada's Worst Handy Man; so.. my guitar tech told me," If you want to lower your action, I can take the saddle shim out for you!" It worked wonders for my playing, and really helped with my transition to the electric guitar later. Just a suggestion, if you agree.
Mike Seguin
Ottawa, ON. CANADA
Posted 2016-04-10 5:32 PM (#524554 - in reply to #524426) Subject: Re: 1112 Custom Balladeer Truss Rod Adjustment..
Joined: February 2016 Posts: 1802
Location: When??
Thanks, Dan, for the reply. After seeing the photos of the projects you have undertaken you are very much admired and trusted in my book.. so thank you for your answer!
And also thank you to Michael. I already did the shim removal years back and, as in your case, it solved the problem perfectly. But as those years have passed the problem has oh-so-slowly returned (somewhat) to the point where I am thinking a rod adjustment may be in order. That way I can also put the saddle shim back in and start over fresh.
Either way, I still have not done anything to it since I just recently put on new strings.. so when I re-string next time I will make the consideration of adjusting both the saddle shim and the rod.
Posted 2016-04-11 5:58 PM (#524581 - in reply to #524550) Subject: Re: 1112 Custom Balladeer Truss Rod Adjustment..
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2317
Location: Pueblo West, CO
Michael R. Seguin - 2016-04-10 1:16 PM
Hi, Dan,
Mike Seguin here. I always found the factory action on my Ovation guitars just a shade too high for my liking, because I'm a jazz player. Rather than fool around with the truss rod, and yes, Dan, I'm of the old, "If it aint broke, don't fix it!", school myself, being Canada's Worst Handy Man; so.. my guitar tech told me," If you want to lower your action, I can take the saddle shim out for you!" It worked wonders for my playing, and really helped with my transition to the electric guitar later. Just a suggestion, if you agree.
Mike Seguin
Ottawa, ON. CANADA
Hi Mike,
Most manufacturers send their new guitars out with high action so that it can be adjusted to the individual player's preference and playing style. (It's a lot easier to lower the string height than to raise it)
Absolutely. In fact, one of the first things that should be done to a newly acquired guitar is to check and if necessary, adjust the set-up. It's the first thing I do to all my guitars.
A good set up consists of the following: Adjust bridge saddle height, adjust nut height and adjust neck relief. If you can't do this yourself, a good luthier or guitar tech should be able to do this for you. (cost: $30-$50)
Some people prefer to adjust nut action first, then adjust bridge saddle action, but I prefer to adjust saddle, then nut.
If you fret the string between the 2nd and 3rd fret, then tap lightly on the string over the 1st fret, you should hear a little ping. If you don't hear a ping, then the nut action for that string is probably too high. If you have to push the string down to get it to contact the 1st fret, then it's definitely too high.
A lot of people get discouraged playing a guitar because the nut action is so high that it hurts their fingers when they play. So, they stop playing. If they had a easy-to-play guitar, they'd get much more enjoyment out of it and would play more.
Posted 2016-04-11 6:08 PM (#524582 - in reply to #524554) Subject: Re: 1112 Custom Balladeer Truss Rod Adjustment..
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2317
Location: Pueblo West, CO
Love O Fair - 2016-04-10 3:32 PM
I already did the shim removal years back and, as in your case, it solved the problem perfectly. But as those years have passed the problem has oh-so-slowly returned (somewhat) to the point where I am thinking a rod adjustment may be in order. That way I can also put the saddle shim back in and start over fresh.
Either way, I still have not done anything to it since I just recently put on new strings.. so when I re-string next time I will make the consideration of adjusting both the saddle shim and the rod.
Hi Al,
You're welcome.
As guitars age, string tension causes the belly on the top to increase which raises the string height at the 12th fret. Thankfully, a lot of manufacturers, like Ovation, include shims that allow us to easily fix the problem.
But, at some point, you run out of shims to remove. Then, the only real solution is to get a neck reset to change the neck angle. Martin necks use dovetail joints. Taylor and newer USA Ovations have bolt-on necks.
Sometimes, like on the early USA Ovations and most of the Asian Ovations, the necks are not really removable. They are, but not easily. (Ask arumako) In those cases, some will shave the front of the bridge, but that's just a band-aid. Eventually you run out of wood to shave and the guitar becomes a wall-hanger.
Keep in mind that the truss rod is only there to allow you to adjust neck relief, which is the amount of bow in the neck between the 1st and 12th frets. Adjusting it does nothing to raise or lower the action at the 12th fret. A truss rod that's gotten too loose and allows the neck to become excessively bowed will raise the action at the 12th fret, but those are extreme cases.
Posted 2016-04-11 8:50 PM (#524583 - in reply to #524582) Subject: Re: 1112 Custom Balladeer Truss Rod Adjustment..
Joined: February 2016 Posts: 1802
Location: When??
@ Dan Savage - "Adjusting it does nothing to raise or lower the action at the 12th fret."
And that's where I would want it to be lower and lighter. So now, I'm picturing a neck's truss rod function like a single piece of spaghetti that has only been cooked on one half's end (the headstock end). No matter how much you pick up the dangling end to align it with the uncooked end, the uncooked end doesn't change. Is this correct?
If so, then I have to go with what you and Arthur are saying and not mess with the rod since I would be wanting lower action at the 12th fret anyway, and also since the nut end action is just fine. And yes, this is a bolt-on neck.. but I don't think I would go so extreme as a neck reset either. When I play new guitars at stores, even on the expensive high-end ones, the action/height is pretty much the same as my old Ovation.. and I have zero buzz on any string at any fret, so I guess I shouldn't be complaining!
It's just the psych thing of knowing that there are no shims under that loooow saddle .. dives me buggy! I want mine to be like all the other kids' saddles! Waaaaa! Waaaaa!
So thanks again for your input. I'll sit down and behave now.
Posted 2016-04-12 9:08 AM (#524587 - in reply to #524583) Subject: Re: 1112 Custom Balladeer Truss Rod Adjustment..
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2317
Location: Pueblo West, CO
The truss rod only runs from the head stock to just inside the heel of the neck, which is at the 15th fret. Since the end of the TR is at a fixed position at the 15th fret, it's physically impossible for the TR to lower the string height at the 12th fret. All it does is adjust the amount of bowing, or the spacing of the string to the neck at about the 6-7 fret. If you have too much bowing, you can tighten it and it will remove the bowing. Or, if the strings are buzzing, then you can loosen it and the string tension will add more bowing. But, that's the limit of available adjustment for the TR.
It is the height of the saddle that controls the string height at the 12th fret.
Yes, I know the feeling. But, that's why manufacturers give us removable necks. When we run out of shims, we can do a neck reset, which isn't all that drastic, to make the guitar we love, playable again.
Edited by DanSavage 2016-04-12 9:09 AM
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1112 Custom Balladeer Truss Rod Adjustment..
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