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Location: SF Bay area, California | TBD, pictures aren't good enough for me to tell. An auction purchase.
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Location: Boise, Idaho | You can probably tell from the label when you get it, but those cracks look like it's too old for a reissue. I'll check when I get home, but I think the reissues all had the Dunlop strap lock buttons, rather than the smaller ones they used to use and had serial numbers stamped on the back of the headstock. I can't quite tell from the last picture, but it looks like an old button to me.
Edited by Mark in Boise 2016-01-20 6:31 PM
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | That is an Original with the paper label.
Re-issues have an Oval label.
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Location: SF Bay area, California | I've got more pictures now. Looks like a neck heel crack is going to be the first item to deal with. There's gelcoat cracking that was neither disclosed or illustrated.
SN is 22XX, so 2nd or 3rd year of production?
I'll wait until I receive it and can take pictures of my own before further updates here.
M^2
Edited by MarkM 2016-01-24 1:17 AM
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | If I'm not mistaken, 22XX would be somewhere 1969-70. |
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Location: Texas | Dan, It is a 68...because the alpha numeric #ing came after the xxxx, during the summer of 68. I wonder how high into the 2000's they went before they went to alpha numeric. And it is just a Balladeer or Model 1. The 1111 model was the 2nd gen. Balladeer... I am not sure where the K-1111 model # came from on the re-issue.
Edited by jay 2016-01-24 8:37 PM
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Location: SF Bay area, California | Here's a first set of external detail pictures, concentating on flaws. I've got some internal pictures that I need to trim down.
https://goo.gl/photos/phJfeffyQMEE4UW47 |
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | Hi M^2,
Whoa! That bad-boy has seen some action, hasn't it?
Personally, I would not try to repair the top. I would pull it off and build a new one. The bridge looks like it's in good condition and since it's BRW, I would separate it from the old top and re-use it on the new top. If it were mine, I'd use torrefied wood for the top and braces.
WRT the neck, I would use Ken's (arumako) technique to try to soften the epoxy and separate the neck from the bowl before attempting to repair the split. Then, once the neck is off and the split is repaired, strip the old finish off and apply new clear coat. The old finish is hiding some really pretty wood. The head stock veneer is BRW and the heel plate is ebony. Stripping off the old finish and apply new will allow all this beautiful wood to really pop. The crack in the wing on the head stock looks like it was a decent repair, so other than sanding it level, it doesn't need any other repair work done.
The toughest thing to replace will be the grapevine rosette. When I did Jay's guitar JB was able to find two --one he sent to me and another that he said he was going to hang onto in case he needed it in the future. Not too sure if he's found any more. You'd have to contact him to find out.
There are some fingernail grooves in the fretboard, but these would sand out pretty easily, but the old frets would need to be removed and new ones put in. Depending on how the upper frets look, you might be able to get away with a partial re-fret job.
Dan |
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Location: undisclosed | The only way I've seen neck heel repairs hold up is to drill from the heel into the neck and epoxy in a hardwood dowel. The ebony end could be removed before hand and re installed after to cover the end. I've had to do this on a couple instruments now and it really holds up but just a reglue won't.
As for the splits the alternative is to glue in slivers cut from a donor wood or a parts guitar, this is done on string instruments such as violins, cellos etc... fairly often. With careful grain matching it can be very hard to spot after leveling and refinishing the top. Of course on a traditional approach you'd be keeping the varnish intact and matching but O's aren't Guarnieri's. |
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | Good point about the dowel.
I don't think the heel repair could be done with the neck on the guitar. |
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Location: undisclosed | I pull the neck pieces, repair, then reinstall. The doweled neck is stronger than stock because of the grain orientation. Once removed the pieces can be carefully glued together in line with each other. After the glue dries then drill the hole for the dowel. I use a slightly oversized hole for a non forced fit and glue in the dowel with thickened epoxy. This lets excess glue escape and insures the dowel goes all the way in while keeping glue in the joint.
Edited by Cavalier 2016-03-11 10:10 AM
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Location: Texas | Cavalier...totally curious on this...why wouldn't a wood glue be used in the dowel hole? The lack of a pressurized fit? |
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | jay - 2016-03-11 11:06 AM
Cavalier...totally curious on this...why wouldn't a wood glue be used in the dowel hole? The lack of a pressurized fit?
Epoxy cures inside holes without the need for air. Wood glue needs to evaporate.
The wood glue would skin over at the top of the hole preventing any further evaporation.
Edited by DanSavage 2016-03-11 2:26 PM
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Location: undisclosed | The other danger of the tight fit is spitting the heel. On my ES 125 I actually used 2 smaller dowels to take advantage of the heel width. On my cello with the long narrow heel I used a large center dowel. Epoxy is great stuff, with a thickener like colloidal silica or flour like saw dust it will fill gaps without loss of strength. |
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | True. I forgot about that aspect of too-tight of a fit.
Another problem with tight fitting joints and wood glue is the glue will sometimes grab. I had that happen when gluing a wing spar into a tight spar pocket. The glue grabbed when the spar was halfway into the pocket. Luckily, I was able to get the spar out of the pocket with no damage. After that, I only used epoxy for tight-fitting joints.
I've used dry artist pigment to color the epoxy, as well.
Since most pigments are mineral-based, it hardens the epoxy just like cabosil.
Edited by DanSavage 2016-03-11 3:55 PM
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Location: undisclosed | It would take awhile but on a top replacement why not cut out the rosette oversize and whittle/sand it to thickness and dimension? |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Someone has probably already checked, but since the factory produced the K1111 re-issue not long ago, maybe they'd have some of those rosettes around. |
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | Chris,
Yes, this could be done. As you say, it would take a while.
Mark,
I contacted JB when I restored Jay's Balladeer. JB said he found two --one he sent to me and the other he said he was keeping in case he needed it. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Oops. I saw that when you said it the first time and just didn't equate "JB" with John Budny. I guess my K1111 RI is even more precious than I thought. |
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Location: undisclosed | Would a rosette by any other name be so neat? (apologies to WS) |
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Location: SF Bay area, California | I've found a couple of Frank Ford articles on an in-situ heel repair. Because of the strut rod, I can't drill straight through the fretboard, as he did.
His second choice is drilling through the heel. Removing the neck is probably best, that is definitely something I've not done before..
http://frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Quickies/GlueInject/glueinject....
http://frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Quickies/RopeClamp/ropeclamp.ht...
This is the only shiny bowl I've ever had in my hands. I've tuned it down 3 frets, and capo it back up to E. I am interested in fixing the heel to make this a player, but doing a full restoration is not where I will spend my guitar dollars. All of my dollars have been in too short supply.
With my hands, a wide-neck Folklore would fit better. I've got 3 other 1+11/16" nut O's.
Edited by MarkM 2016-03-11 11:19 PM
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | I love that site. There's so much valuable information on guitar repairs. I've learned a lot by reading his articles. I like the rope-clamp trick. |
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | Cavalier - 2016-03-11 3:52 PM
Would a rosette by any other name be so neat? (apologies to WS)
I found a special one on eBay that I'm saving for my wood round back guitar. It's black MOP, white MOP and abalone. The pic below doesn't do it justice.
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Location: undisclosed | Very nice Dan!
I'm contemplating a few builds, on the acoustic side a modern lute and viol are tempting, on the electric side I've been slowly acquiring parts for a mando strat and extended range electric violin. These things can take years to get to!
MarkM I think you can do the neck repair. At the least the top part should come out. Then you can clean up the joint and do what you need to for the reglue. Still put the dowel in through the heel after the glue is dried. Just make sure the bottom glue joint isn't failing, if so pull it out.
With the neck done you won't make that top worse stringing up to pitch. I'd probably fill the cracks with the sliver method, I'm also curious about what they do if you tried clamping the top with a bar across to see if it goes flat. If they close up and things level out its time to get out the glue. |
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Location: Texas | Bottom line Mark...you have yourself a shiny bowl and a 5 point bridge and a neck that is in fixable condition...I think that 485's soundboard was a little worse off...maybe not... but I loved playing it everyday, with a top that was compromised. The first ones are exceptional, historic, handmade guitars. So basic...but yet so incredibly acoustic. Congrats on the find.
Edited by jay 2016-03-12 1:08 PM
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Shiny bowl early 1111, or reissue?
