Posted 2015-09-10 5:45 PM (#515142 - in reply to #515041) Subject: Re: Lookin' Good at the Factory!!
Joined: March 2005 Posts: 12759
Location: Boise, Idaho
Come on, Nancy, admit that you get at least some warm fuzzies just from the fact that you own one. I do. Pride or vanity or whatever someone wants to call it, I like the fact that I own one (or more) of the best guitars made. It's true that I wouldn't buy a guitar, or anything for that matter, because it cost a bunch of money. Guitars are art, but a big part of the artistry is in how they play. I've owned a grand piano, but after our daughter the piano player left home, the piano was sold. Nice looking piece of furniture that never gets used needs to go to someone who will use it. I'm vain enough to want a Steinway, but not vain enough to buy one and let it sit.
Posted 2015-09-10 5:46 PM (#515143 - in reply to #515041) Subject: Re: Lookin' Good at the Factory!!
Joined: December 2006 Posts: 6996
Location: Jet City
I'm not sure why someone would think you can put a Balladeer level instrument out for $1000. Maybe some stripped-down, no-finish, bare-bones guitar could be produced in that area with the proper workforce and assembly line, but is that how we want to represent the craftsmanship of the Mothership? Let them make the special ones. There's only a handful of guys now. Maybe that'll change on down the line, bit for now it makes total sense to limit their work to special runs and customs.
And what was a Balladeer costing in 1973... $340 list? I'm not sure about retail price, but I know you could pick up a new Les Paul Custom for about $500 in '73, now it's nearly 10X that with inflation and production cost increases over the past 40 years. Using that formula a Balladeer should list at $3400 now right?
Posted 2015-09-10 5:58 PM (#515144 - in reply to #515142) Subject: Re: Lookin' Good at the Factory!!
Joined: December 2014 Posts: 1713
Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota
Mark in Boise - 2015-09-10 5:45 PM
Come on, Nancy, admit that you get at least some warm fuzzies just from the fact that you own one. I do. Pride or vanity or whatever someone wants to call it, I like the fact that I own one (or more) of the best guitars made. It's true that I wouldn't buy a guitar, or anything for that matter, because it cost a bunch of money. Guitars are art, but a big part of the artistry is in how they play. I've owned a grand piano, but after our daughter the piano player left home, the piano was sold. Nice looking piece of furniture that never gets used needs to go to someone who will use it. I'm vain enough to want a Steinway, but not vain enough to buy one and let it sit.
LOL!!! MAJOR Warm Fuzzies!!!! LOL!!!
Although not from vanity, Pride I will readily admit to though! But it is Pride that I have one of the Best Guitars ever made, not vanity that I have one of the most Expensive. And there is still the feeling of Un-Worthiness, that someone who plays at my level, has one of these Amazing Guitars that deserve to be in the hands of someone who's Ability, Talent and Skill warrants a Guitar of this Caliber! (But I can live with that, just to be able to play her, and see her everyday!!! ).
Posted 2015-09-10 8:03 PM (#515145 - in reply to #515140) Subject: Re: Lookin' Good at the Factory!!
Joined: December 2003 Posts: 1889
Location: Central Massachusetts
360Ovation - 2015-09-10 5:28 PM
OMA - I was not aware that Ovation had made some satin topped guitars ("Special" you say?). So they have a track record there - why not go for it again?
The S771 Balladeer Specials they made for Guitar Center had satin finishes. I believe all of the wood-topped Adamas models they were making at the end were satin finish due to the way they are attached to the suspension ring -- my custom redwood ( <---- ) included.
Posted 2015-09-10 9:44 PM (#515146 - in reply to #515143) Subject: Re: Lookin' Good at the Factory!!
Joined: July 2015 Posts: 190
Location: SW Mintsoda
damon67 - 2015-09-10 5:46 PM
I'm not sure why someone would think you can put a Balladeer level instrument out for $1000. Maybe some stripped-down, no-finish, bare-bones guitar could be produced in that area with the proper workforce and assembly line, but is that how we want to represent the craftsmanship of the Mothership?
Point taken...but...
I think I suggested $1,200-1,500 MAP...
...and EVERY American instrument company is having to build guitars to price points in order to compete...even Gibson is building some USA Les Pauls that are below their "Studio" model - these have satin finishes and no binding, but they're USA Gibsons, and they sell. People who buy these are often dreaming of the day they can afford a "proper" or "real" Les Paul... (on the acoustic side, Gibson is building a walnut bodied J-45 (called the J-15 or J-29 I think) that sells for around $1,500 street; Martin is selling their satin 15 series guitars for under $1,500, etc.).
I think eventually, if Ovation wants to sell enough guitars to keep the US factory going, they'll have to have some high end models, but also some volume models built to a lower price point that get people's foot in the door, so to speak.
Posted 2015-09-10 11:45 PM (#515147 - in reply to #515041) Subject: Re: Lookin' Good at the Factory!!
Joined: January 2006 Posts: 1483
Location: Michigan
i look back at when there was a rumor that ovation was going to sell off.
all of us were in shock of that happening for quite a while and all of us were blogging about what it would take to keep the u.s.a. plant open and it was obvious that it would take selling more high end guitars or downsizing the operations here and selling less guitars with less employees and better profits. after the fuc?der acquisition they folded the plant and went to all offshore production and we all cried like a bunch of bed wetting sissies.
how could they do that.
for the last few years all of us had our own opinion on how some other music company could come back into the game and re-vamp an american made guitar. well now that d.w. has done that and has talked ( and listened ) to allot of our members , i find it crazy to start asking for them to make
$1000.00 - $ 1500.00 guitars out of this plant at this point.
lets give this new company a chance to make a great high end u.s.a. guitar and make a name for itself . you can always buy a cheaper gibson with no binding or a martin for less but like anything else you get what you pay for.
when your spending big dollars on quality to me it is like buying a car
Posted 2015-09-11 9:17 AM (#515148 - in reply to #515041) Subject: RE: Lookin' Good at the Factory!!
Joined: July 2015 Posts: 190
Location: SW Mintsoda
Ovation may start with some special 50th Anniversary models at the higher end, and that's fine - I have no problem with that.
But look at the model and price spread of nearly every American guitar company today (guitar companies that build in America): Gibson, Fender, Martin, Taylor, Larrivee ... I'm not including Gretsch or Guild in this because Gretsch's top models are made in Japan (aren't they?) and Guild hasn't been successful lately; we'll see if Cordoba can bring them back...
...all of these companies build guitars at different price points (electrics and acoustics). They build entry level Chevrolets and Toyotas and they build high end Cadillacs and Lexus. Like Ovation, most of these companies (with the exception of Larrivee) also have models that are built overseas somewhere: Mexico, Korea, China, Indonesia, etc.
There are a few growing companies that only build high end guitars, like Collings and SCGC; and they don't build anything overseas. But even Collings has come out with a new, lower priced model line (but they're still in the $2K range!).
I'm not sure I see Ovation as a parallel to Collings; I'm not sure others do, either (and probably only the Ovation faithful have that high a view of Adamas guitars; the reputation is with folks who are already "insiders"). That's why I think, at some point, for the USA plant to be viable, they will need to develop some models that sell in the $1,200-1,500 range.
The overseas guitars also have their place, but you have to do some volume at the US plant to pay people's salaries, keep them busy, and justify the expense of equipment purchase and maintenance, or you have to raise the price even more on the few guitars you do make in order to keep the doors open. Is there the demand for Ovations or Adamas that move up into the stratosphere of guitar prices (say $4K - $10K)? So far only ONE person here has jumped on the idea that was suggested to do a $10K Anniversary model which would include a factory tour, unlimited options, etc.
Posted 2015-09-11 9:20 AM (#515149 - in reply to #515041) Subject: Re: Lookin' Good at the Factory!!
Joined: July 2015 Posts: 190
Location: SW Mintsoda
P.S. I'm not trying to be a contrarian ... but having a conversation means we'll express different points of view and different ideas - that's all I'm doing.
I'm coming at this as someone who is not a die-hard, long-time Ovation player or fan like many folks here (but I like the ones I currently have, and would be open to buying a new USA model...) ... and I'm just ONE kind of person you have to sell some guitars to in order for the company to have a future...
...I'm 57; you've got to convince some teens, 20- and 30-somethings that Ovations are worth buying in order for the company to really have a long term future...
Posted 2015-09-11 9:44 AM (#515151 - in reply to #515041) Subject: Re: Lookin' Good at the Factory!!
Joined: January 2002 Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch
A $1200 us made ovation is a bernie sanders pipe dream. Neither one is going to happen. To get low prices you need fairly high volumes and a smooth efficient factory. We're looking at a small, startup. Everyone wants a boutiqueie very cool guitar. But then nobody ever wants to pay for it. These will be produced in one of the most business unfriendly states in the union, rapidly being run into the ground by their lunatic liberal governor. It is probably better than California which has probably got to be the worst for manufacturing in the country which is why DW decided to leave the factory in Ct. among other reasons. And hey, don't forget, everyone has to make at least $15.00 an hour. So material, labor and overhead might come to your $1200 which means it goes to the dealer for around $1800 and has an A list price of $3600, at a dealer discount of 30% gives you a street price of $2500. That's the way it is.
Posted 2015-09-11 9:47 AM (#515152 - in reply to #515041) Subject: Re: Lookin' Good at the Factory!!
Joined: March 2008 Posts: 2683
Location: Hot Springs, S.D.
All of this speculation is pointless. DW really KNOWS how to build and run a successful business. They are going to do this right. Ovation will rise from the ashes to be better than it has ever been. Great guitars built and sold by a very successful business. Soon we will no longer be able to say, "Ovations don't get the respect they deserve." Instead we'll be saying, "Yeah but WE loved them first."
Posted 2015-09-11 10:00 AM (#515153 - in reply to #515148) Subject: RE: Lookin' Good at the Factory!!
Joined: December 2003 Posts: 852
Location: Canada
360Ovation - 2015-09-11 8:17 AM: ... and Guild hasn't been successful lately;
Guild is probably the most comparable of all the other companies because there are many parallels, And to call Guild "not successful" is not really a valid description of the situation. As for the some similarities: both were rather "young" companies compared to Martin and Gibson, but younger than Taylor and other newcomers. Both had their peak of populartity decades ago. Both were acquired by Fender and eventually shared the NH plant. Both have currently no U.S. production but the brand/cash flow is kept alive by overseas models.
As for some differences: Guild always had a motto of better guitars for the money, i.e. a value and player orientation, whereas Ovation had emphasis on innovation. I think that after the acquisition Fender put much more effort into rejuvenating Guild and let Ovation linger. The new owners of Guild have built a brand new plant with new workers; the plan is to start with the most basic models and then gradually expand to full model line production. On the other hand the new Ovation owners have leased the old plant at small scale, staffed with expereinced workers intending to start with a (probably high end) anniversary model and no definite plans for the future. Guild overseas (and used) guitars are well regarded in the AGF community and embraced by Guild fans for their value; whereas few OFC members have much interest in overseas Ovations and they are rarely mentioned at the AGF.
So when comparing Ovation to other brands there are many factors that could be considered, but I think that much can be learned by looking at the closest one. And yeah BTW the guitars I use are NH made Ovation and Guild and I would not consider any other brands!
Posted 2015-09-11 10:01 AM (#515154 - in reply to #515041) Subject: Re: Lookin' Good at the Factory!!
Joined: January 2002 Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch
The Collings Waterloo is in its own production line, in a different building even. They list for 2000-2200. They are having a good go with it cause they have 20+ years track record making the best high end guitars and they are big enough now to pull it off. Plus the design or the guitars is aimed at what the LG series Gibsons were. And Bill wants to make them just like the originals(only better of course) so they leave the inside glue around the braces and don't use binding and a satin finish that shows lots of grain. Spell this as lowering the labor content as much as you can.
Part of the trick is to get the 20-30s to want to play an instrument. Not too many role models around these days. And too many other options. And nobody wants to work long and hard to get halfway good, they want it all right now.
Posted 2015-09-11 10:19 AM (#515155 - in reply to #515151) Subject: Re: Lookin' Good at the Factory!!
Joined: July 2015 Posts: 190
Location: SW Mintsoda
cwk2 - 2015-09-11 9:44 AM
A $1200 us made ovation is a bernie sanders pipe dream. Neither one is going to happen. To get low prices you need fairly high volumes and a smooth efficient factory. We're looking at a small, startup. Everyone wants a boutiqueie very cool guitar. But then nobody ever wants to pay for it. These will be produced in one of the most business unfriendly states in the union, rapidly being run into the ground by their lunatic liberal governor. It is probably better than California which has probably got to be the worst for manufacturing in the country which is why DW decided to leave the factory in Ct. among other reasons. And hey, don't forget, everyone has to make at least $15.00 an hour. So material, labor and overhead might come to your $1200 which means it goes to the dealer for around $1800 and has an A list price of $3600, at a dealer discount of 30% gives you a street price of $2500. That's the way it is.
Obviously, you know this stuff from the inside better than most of us do, so I'm glad you chimed in.
CT and CA are both "hostile to business" states, no doubt. That makes it all the more interesting that Fender, Taylor and Larrivee are all producing their USA products there (Carvin as well, but they have a different business model).
As someone else said, DW could start at the high end (Anniversary models and Adamas?) and eventually move toward higher volume, lower priced models...we'll see...
Posted 2015-09-11 10:26 AM (#515156 - in reply to #515153) Subject: RE: Lookin' Good at the Factory!!
Joined: July 2015 Posts: 190
Location: SW Mintsoda
merlin666 - 2015-09-11 10:00 AM
On the other hand the new Ovation owners have leased the old plant at small scale, staffed with expereinced workers intending to start with a (probably high end) anniversary model and no definite plans for the future.
"...no definite plans for the future..."
Do you know something the rest of us don't know?
I suspect that DW has a business plan in place for Ovation; no company builds products without a business plan (which includes some idea of who their customer base is).
Unless someone here has inside information and is sworn not to tell, we don't know what DW's full blown business plan is, but surely they do have some definite plans for the future. To move forward without some plans would be financially irresponsible; DW's track record as a company doesn't reflect that kind of irresponsibility.
Posted 2015-09-11 10:37 AM (#515157 - in reply to #515041) Subject: Re: Lookin' Good at the Factory!!
Joined: January 2002 Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch
Yeah, I don't get it either. National Resophonic is in Ca too and the have metal treatment which the state really gets down on. There are a lot of other small makers too. I think Ca is worse for business and other taxes but Ct is trying hard to catch up.
DW has proven they know how to make an instrument company run successfully. I really hope they do it again with Ovation. But making the factory work is only half of it. The other half is having an environment where people want to play music, and that what is out there is good and they want to emulate it or write their own. And they need public places to go show it off. Unfortunately this side is shrinking, and performers are being paid now just about the same as they were 30 years ago. There does seem to be a lot of open mics. I can imagine venue owners really like this since they don't have to pay for it.
Posted 2015-09-11 11:21 AM (#515158 - in reply to #515156) Subject: RE: Lookin' Good at the Factory!!
Joined: December 2003 Posts: 852
Location: Canada
360Ovation - 2015-09-11 9:26 AM
merlin666 - 2015-09-11 10:00 AM On the other hand the new Ovation owners have leased the old plant at small scale, staffed with expereinced workers intending to start with a (probably high end) anniversary model and no definite plans for the future.
"...no definite plans for the future..." Do you know something the rest of us don't know?
Sorry poor wording in the morning. I mean specific plans for new models have not been announced, and we don't know their specific intentions. As a result there has been a lot of discussion here about what DW might/should/oughta been doing ...
I certainly know very little about the inside of the music industry just the internet rumours, and of course they are ALL true! Just enjoy playing my guitars whenever I can, and am as curious about the future of Ovation as anyone here.
Posted 2015-09-11 11:51 AM (#515159 - in reply to #515157) Subject: Re: Lookin' Good at the Factory!!
Joined: December 2006 Posts: 6996
Location: Jet City
cwk2 - 2015-09-11 8:37 AM ...The other half is having an environment where people want to play music, and that what is out there is good and they want to emulate it or write their own. And they need public places to go show it off. Unfortunately this side is shrinking, and performers are being paid now just about the same as they were 30 years ago. There does seem to be a lot of open mics. I can imagine venue owners really like this since they don't have to pay for it.
BINGO!
These days, I'd rather go play a private party. At least I'll be well fed, liquored up, won't have to pay for parking, and am usually amongst friends. I think expenses outweigh the benefits when I have to pack up my gear and play Pioneer Square in Seattle.
It's been great since getting the house setup too. Half the time, the party/event just ends up being here. It's definitely "an environment where people want to play music"
As for open mics... I think they play their part. They're usually on nights that don't pull in crowds. The venue owners are still paying someone to run the thing, it's not a total freebie. Most the patrons on these off-nights are usually the people that are getting up to play along with their supporters. I think a concentrated effort in this market is a good idea too.
I can tell you this for a fact: I can point to at least a dozen people that are now playing Ovations here locally due largely in part to seeing mine at open mics around the region. 3 of them were at the last OFC NW Gathering. Who knows how many people there are that I don't know about that might have bought one, or even considered one just a bit more after seeing and hearing one of my USA Ovation/Adamas guitars playing their local watering hole.
Get yer O's out. Spread the word. Let's get a good buzz going
Posted 2015-09-11 12:40 PM (#515161 - in reply to #515152) Subject: Re: Lookin' Good at the Factory!!
Joined: September 2011 Posts: 402
Location: New Hartford CT
CanterburyStrings - 2015-09-11 10:47 AM
All of this speculation is pointless. DW really KNOWS how to build and run a successful business. They are going to do this right. Ovation will rise from the ashes to be better than it has ever been. Great guitars built and sold by a very successful business. Soon we will no longer be able to say, "Ovations don't get the respect they deserve." Instead we'll be saying, "Yeah but WE loved them first."
Posted 2015-09-18 11:19 PM (#515346 - in reply to #515041) Subject: Re: Lookin' Good at the Factory!!
Joined: March 2013 Posts: 359
Location: undisclosed
What happened to the old bass player? Those parties are a blast, one of these days I'll stop playing long enough to eat the food and get liquored up.... I'm still bummed that all the single gals at Dereck's shindig left with the non musicians.... I've got to spend more time in the buffet line.....
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Lookin' Good at the Factory!!
But it is Pride that I have one of the Best Guitars ever made, not vanity that I have one of the most Expensive. 
