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Of the music teachers on here (and I notice there are many at different levels)...
Do you just teach about the business end of music or do you just teach the art side of it?
The reason I ask is that we all know the stories of starving musicians and artists. That's all fun and romantic, but especially now that the cast majority of professional musicians are DIY with no agents and industry backing... where do the young artists who want to be career musicians learn the business end of things.
I remember even in wood working class and automotive we were taught not only how to draw and make plans and use the tools but we learned about apprenticeship, and while not much in elementary or high school was "career" oriented, it seems all but music and art had a little hint of how to make a career of it.
I wonder if the reason so many musicians get bad deals still today even in gigging is that once they make the turn to be "professional" musicians, they don't even realize they are professionals and have a career.
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Location: Flahdaw | Not to be a butt-in-ski here, but why would you even think they are teaching the "business" side? Football or basketball coaches don't, math teachers don't give you a "how to be a Wall Street banker" tutorials, English teachers don't give you lessons on unemployment...
Now if you are going to Julliard and majoring in music, they probably have some classes on the business side of the music industry.
The fact is, most grade school educators have no real working world experience. They go right from school to TEACHING school. And private music instructors are not getting paid to do that (and I doubt the parents are gonna pony up extra dough for questionable business lessons anyhoo) |
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | One of the best things I have ever done both for myself and for my students, is to attend the songwriter's workshops that have taken place here in Hot Springs. I put on a mini one for the Black Hills gathering a few years ago with just one songwriter from Nashville, but others I have attended had five or six songwriters AND producers who put on workshops and seminars. While this hasn't made me an expert, I did learn what it is producers are looking for, how to conduct oneself in a pitch session, how to copyright songs, and a little bit about agents.
Now what I have learned has allowed me to help some of "my kids" kick-start their carreers on the local/regional scene, but I encourage all of them to go on to places like this: http://www.mi.edu/
As a matter of fact, Jarrett, whom all who attended the Black Hills gathering met, has his first CD out, copyrighted, and has joined ASCAP. He has gotten radio airplay here in the Hills, and after he graduates from high school this year, he will be attending Musician's Institute to study "Independant Artist" and guitar. Christiane Roth, that girl with the big blues voice, took a more traditional route and majored in "Music Business" with a minor in guitar at Chadron State college. She has (through the school), been to Nashville, toured studios there, spoken to producers, and been on stage with some bands who have hit records.
Neither place (L.A. or Nashville) is easy to break into the business, but both of these kids have extreme talent, level heads, and have already done a lot for their young ages. Christiane will be able to work in the business end of things if her singing career doesn't take off, and Jarrett already has a lot of experience teaching music should his performing career falter. (Besides, after I die he inherits my shop - not that it is any kind of huge money maker, but he will be able to pay the bills and eat.)
But I also tell kids that there are other ways to make a living with music besides becoming a performer. Look at Meredith - she teaches elementary education. Look at me - I run a music store and teach guitar. Then there is my step-daughter who is an excellent guitarist, bass player and pianist. She went to school to become a recording engineer and has quite a successful career. She still plays in bands on the side, but her living comes from her work at a teleivsion station.
Most of my kids are talented enough to entertain their friends, families, and themselves, and that's as far as they want or are able to take it. When I find someone who might be able to take it farther, I help them as much as I can. |
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Location: New Bern, NC | I do a mini unit with 5th graders based on the materials from "Music Rules" that teaches about respect for intellectual property, illegal downloading, and internet safety. It's sponsored by RIAA. http://www.music-rules.com/teachers.html One of the lessons is about the number of people involved in the music industry whose jobs and livelyhood are compromised when people illegally copy music, file share, or download music illegally. I do a role playing activity with this where a small number of students are "the band" and the rest of the students work in the industry that supports them. "The band" has to take the money earn (play money) and pay all the people that are involved in their success, like publicity people, photographers, arrangers, sound technicians, studio musicians, graphic artists, roadies, manager, producer, etc. It's a real eye-opener for my young students. By the time we're finished with the unit they can all tell you WHY it's a bad idea to copy CDs or mp3s from their friends. Other than that it would not be appropriate for me to teach students how to negotiate their way through the music industry since I have no training in that nor have I had to do it myself. Other than playing solo gigs and gigging with the band I was in during college, I don't have enough experience with the "industry" to tell a student how to find their way through the business. What I can do is help them get ready to be the best musican they can be and be ready to study music more formally as a music major in college if they wish to take that avenue. |
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Location: Canada | MeredithI - 2013-04-06 6:09 PM
It's a real eye-opener for my young students. By the time we're finished with the unit they can all tell you WHY it's a bad idea to copy CDs or mp3s from their friends.
Maybe I should sit in your class because I really don't get this. Is the copying and sharing of music among people who would NOT be willing or able to pay it for not the very best way for free promotion and advertisement of the product? The notion of a market of people who would buy more music if they could not get it through sharing is totally fictional, and there is no realistic reduction of inventory.
Many recording artists continue to report record profits in each successive year, and I am not sure if this is despite or because of the wider availability of their product through "free" downloads. Eventually, those who really like the music and can afford it will attend concerts , purchase specially bundled releases, or other merchandise. I suspect that the music industry actually orchestrates early downloadable releases and other sharing to some extent. It's just smart marketing IMHO. |
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | The SONGWRITERS are the ones who get ripped off if people share music. The only way they make money is through the sales of the records/CD's etc. And if the song is a hit for the performer, the songwriter can make darned GOOD money. The performers themselves don't usually make that much on record sales compared to what they make by touring. (That's why I dream of someone like Chris McNultey recording one of my songs someday - she has to do concert tours while all I have to do is sit home and collect "mailbox money" . |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | CanterburyStrings - 2013-04-06 5:06 PM
The SONGWRITERS are the ones who get ripped off if people share music. The only way they make money is through the sales of the records/CD's etc. And if the song is a hit for the performer, the songwriter can make darned GOOD money. The performers themselves don't usually make that much on record sales compared to what they make by touring. (That's why I dream of someone like Chris McNultey recording one of my songs someday - she has to do concert tours while all I have to do is sit home and collect "mailbox money").
What makes this whole conversation complicated is that the whole "songwriters get paid based on sales" model is no longer the only model. It's the model of the traditional Music Industry, but not the model so much of the indie music industry which now dwarfs the traditional music industry in record sales. Music Industry makes profit from several sources... but were just talking about sales in this sidebar...
Back on topic... (if that's possible) I didn't post this question to ruffle feathers.. "Football or basketball coaches don't, math teachers don't give you a "how to be a Wall Street banker" tutorials, English teachers don't give you lessons on unemployment... " is all true, but also their salary range and these "businesses" are in the news all the time and their business or industry models are portrayed, be they fictional or not on all sorts of TV shows and movies. There is a TV show called Nashville that while fiction and somewhat based on the industry that the demographic of the shows watchers understand, it is to my knowledge the first show of any kind to give a peek, even if fictional, into the inside of the music industry without being too boring. Again, we have seen Wall Street, and even Tool Time delved into "corporate sponsorship" as topics.
I would not expect music teachers to teach all about how to make a career in music. I'm glad to see that at least the ones who posted here so far do indeed touch on it. That's excellent and really I think all that is needed.
When I grew up... music was NOT a career option. I don't know what I thought, and never took it upon myself to find out because I was told by adults, my parents, that music is not a career. Conversation done. The music and musicians we listened to were special... they were discovered... it's what they did... it wasn't their career, they were just too lazy or too stupid to get real jobs... I hated my mother long past the day she died for this and other comments she made. And before anyone goes down the hollier than thou "you should always love your parents crap" you are wrong. Sometimes, people should not be allowed to have children, my parents, especially my mom is the perfect example.
See, even I can derail my own thread. I'm just glad to see there is some mention of "music career" by the teachers who have posted so far. I think that's great, and I think it's enough to plant the seed in those that will take it further. That's actually awesome.
As for me... why so bitter? It's just an age thing. I'm too old to gain back what I lost in time and my personality won't let me settle for less. In other words, I want to play guitar like someone who has been playing guitar every day professionally for nearly 50 years. If I start now... I'll be up to speed when I'm over 100. Ok, I have about 10 years cumulative experience collected so.... I can probably get to where I should be by 90. You get the idea... Even if possible, that would only get me as good as I should be TODAY, not as good as I should be 50 years from now. It's the old carrot on a stick thing.. If it's not worth doing right... it's just not worth doing at all.
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | I was gonna mention at the beginning of the thread, all the people I had met from the Berklee College of Music playing in Harvard Square in the 70's...
(Did they change the name? Cuz in the 70's I thought that it was the Berklee School of Performing Arts.
"Performing" being the operative term)
You were supposed to already know how to play your instrument when you got there.
(unless you came to learn the production end of Music)
This was why I used to see all of these "Buskers" who would give me all their jingle change and take the paper money to the bar... They were learning to Perform, and busking was their Homework Assignment. And the money was a way to keep score.
All that said, I believe that they had a Business Course... But you had to sign-up for it.
"How to NOT get Screwed by your Manager 101"
But all that has changed now cuz in the Indie world you have to be your own manager.
So now it is "How to actually get Paid for playing in a Bar 101"
There was a time when you got Paid and Free Beer.
Y'know... Paid, plus % of the Door, plus Tips.
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | BTW Miles... Back when they taught music in public schools I was told to choose an instrument.
I chose guitar... OR, I tried to choose guitar.
My Mom told me that guitars were just a Fad and that I should learn a Real instrument.
So they made me try to play a Clarinet. (that didn't last long  )
20/20 Hindsight... Had I stuck with it I could be playing Jazz on the street corner now.
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Location: Utah | OMA, Berklee is all about being a successful professional musician today. My daughter Sara auditioned and we did the whole campus tour thing. They have a strong emphasis on how to navigate the business of music. Their music education is first rate, too.
All 3 of my kids have taken music lessons for many years at the local music store from young professional musicians. All the instructors graduated university as music majors. All have locally and regionally successful bands, yet they cannot make a living at it. Thus they teach music and work other jobs.
All of them have discussed how hard it is to make a living in music. I appreciate the reality check my kids are getting, but honestly it is too bad they are getting their music dreams cooled off. Two of the kids have real potential in music.
Edited by FlySig 2013-04-07 8:50 PM
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Location: New Bern, NC | When I was in middle and high school I never participated in school music. As a guitar player there was no place for me there. I took private lessons starting at age 12, learned to read music on the guitar, and jammed with friends. My parents, bless them, supported and encouraged ANYTHING I was ever interested in. When I entered college and wanted to be a music major with guitar as my instrument I had been playing since I was 12 and could also read music. But the university I went to only had CLASSICAL guitar as a major, so I had to buy (i.e., my parents bought me) a classical guitar and I had to take a semester of lessons to learn the techniques and repertoire so I could then audition to enter the music department. All the guitar majors in my department were performance majors. I knew that wouldn't be a practical career move, so I chose to be a Music Education major. Now, of the people I know who I graduated with, I am the only one who gets to play guitar for my job. *grin* I didn't need a course in how to navigate the "music business" to figure that one out. LOL
Edited by MeredithI 2013-04-07 10:25 PM
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | FlySig - 2013-04-07 6:43 PM
I appreciate the reality check my kids are getting, but honestly it is too bad they are getting their music dreams cooled off. Two of the kids have real potential in music.
Frankly today I don't think it's any harder to be a musician than anything else. It's a career, and if you put in the time, you get the reward.... Talent is certainly a plus, but we all know it's not a requirement.
One of my current inspirations is Richie Castellano. While his family is Castellano music in NY, he is a musician. No gig is too small or too big. He's touring with a national act, teaching guitar, playing in bands with his students, playing and promoting his girlfriends' band, just last week he got a pick-up gig in Russia to play at a private party then had to fly back, grab his touring rig, and head out with Blue Oyster Cult to the west coast and then Australia and in the meantime he did a gig with his girlfriends band and keeps tabs on his students. That was JUST LAST WEEK. Just one week in his life... He is amazing and an amazing player and person as well. Oh yeah, in his spare time he makes movies. LOL...
We also have our very own Matt Smith. Again, a professional musician. He performs, he teaches, he writes and the list goes on. He sells (or used to) really cool glass slides too.
And of course... OMA seems to do ok as well.. He works hard although he'll never admit it's work, but he's out there.
Gone are the days of the record company handing anyone, even Paul McCartney or the Foo Fighters and $250,000 check and saying "go make us a record." That doesn't happen anymore. But you can certainly make your own, distribute it and make a living at your craft from several angles.
Don't let them get discouraged. Just saw an interview with Papa Roach from the Guitar Center series. They started out DIY before it was cool... got signed... now they're back to DIY and having the time of their lives. Same for Garbage, and many others. Even Brandie Carlisle who had a record deal, seems to be gigging more often in more visible places now that she released her last album on her own.
It's a different world out there... As cliche as it is to stay, I certainly wish I had it to do all over again.. |
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Location: Utah | mileskb - 2013-04-07 10:45 PM
FlySig - 2013-04-07 6:43 PM
I appreciate the reality check my kids are getting, but honestly it is too bad they are getting their music dreams cooled off. Two of the kids have real potential in music.
Frankly today I don't think it's any harder to be a musician than anything else. It's a career, and if you put in the time, you get the reward.... Talent is certainly a plus, but we all know it's not a requirement.
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I certainly wish I had it to do all over again..
It seems it is more difficult from what I have seen in terms of pay rates for the typical local gig. When I was in a high school band we could make $100 each. And we pretty much did suck. Considering inflation from 1978 that would be something like $300 in today's money. Sara tells me at college in Pennsylvania she could make $100 to $200 in a night in tips. Bars would sometimes give her a portion of the door. She was a solo act, so those $ would be split with others if it were a band.
I think the really difficult issue right now is how the $ get from the listener to the artist. For the most part it doesn't. Illegal copying, Youtube, and other digital sources have disconnected the final consumer from the process of paying for the music.
On the other hand there is tremendous opportunity with digital technologies. As you mentioned, artists can now do it all themselves from recording to producing to distributing.
Secretly I do in some ways hope my kids pursue music. My parents discouraged my music at every turn. Like you, I do wish I had it to do all over again. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | FlySig - 2013-04-08 8:46 AM
It seems it is more difficult from what I have seen in terms of pay rates for the typical local gig. When I was in a high school band we could make $100 each. And we pretty much did suck. Considering inflation from 1978 that would be something like $300 in today's money. Sara tells me at college in Pennsylvania she could make $100 to $200 in a night in tips. Bars would sometimes give her a portion of the door. She was a solo act, so those $ would be split with others if it were a band..
Yep, the local clubs in general pay what they paid in the 80's today. BUT... as example. This weekend a friends band was playing at a local music venue. They are primarily a place to showcase music in a nice restaurant/bar that is only open for the concerts. The pay is the typical + % of the door. To my friends, it didn't matter. It's a nice place to play with nice ambiance so here's what they did...
They hired a college student working on his film and video career to come record it and take pictures and make a music video. They hired an recording engineer (me) to record the gig in 16 track digital. They also had their CD's they made last year on sale. So after a fun nite of music and entertainment, they will have a decent live recording a music video to show for it that will be cross-marketed on all the places they market and likely all the placed the videographer market and all the places the recording engineer markets. This will get them to sell more CD's and have more people show up at gigs, and even get more gigs. None of the artists in this band are full time musicians that I know of so I'm not sure they are "career" musicians, but... I can only imagine where they would be if they could do this at least 5 days/nights a week. This was essentially a standard days work.
This is the landscape of the music industry today. I just got to thinking about Dave Grohl. When we was with Nirvana you only saw him in that environment. As the lead of the Foo Fighters when they were with a record label... again didn't see much of him. Now his last albums have been DIY and he is everywhere. From the playing the Whitehouse to playing in some back yards (literally, people's back yard) in Washington. He just released a tune with Paul McCartney and has a movie out. And in his words, he's doing very well thank you. Granted he's got access to people and equipment that most of us can only dream of, but if he wasn't out there selling himself and working on his craft every single day, he wouldn't have the toys or the lifestyle very long.
Can everyone be a star... well maybe... or maybe not, that's not part of the conversation... the point is... there are a LOT of people just making a nice living in their career as a musician. They play, they work, they market, they invest, they practice and hone their skills, just like everyone else who has a business or a skill.
The trend now is to TURN DOWN a record contract if it's offered. You make your own record and if approached you say..."you can buy it for $xxx,xxx,xxx.xx to make xx number of copies to sell or whatever, but it's mine, not yours, you have to give it back when you're done"
This is not just a 180 from what used to be..... what used to be is GONE.. Saw Joe Walsh on Guitar Center session last night. Not sure when it was recorded, but said it well and to paraphrase... Digital killed the music industry, records, cd's, and record stores, and even music as we know it. but something is going to replace all that. We just don't know what yet.
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Location: Utah | Joe Walsh was great on that show. His comments caused me to put his album "Analog Man" on my list for my next music purchase. Which will be a physical CD btw. |
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Location: Tennessee | Here's a quick insider's course on the business side of the music business, from Flo & Eddie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JHN5HaUg28
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Location: Boise, Idaho | I just asked my guitar teacher, who went to Berklee, whether they had music business courses. He said they were available even when he went 20+ years ago. He said some people were just good at it and some just never coordinated the artistic side with the business side.
Back in the 80s, he was part of a duo that was paid $200 a gig. Now the same place pays a 4 piece band $250. Tough business. |
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Location: Orlando, FL | Thanks for the Flo and Eddie Link Bobbo. Great story told by two great story tellers, |
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| I sometimes teach the business side of it. If I have a student that clearly wants to become a pro. It can be very rewarding to have someone who's interested in how the $ end works as well as the playing side. I think the best way to teach it is something like apprenticeship. I find that these folks and children make the most dedicated students. Will. |
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Location: Denver, CO | will - 2013-04-12 9:47 AM I sometimes teach the business side of it. If I have a student that clearly wants to become a pro. It can be very rewarding to have someone who's interested in how the $ end works as well as the playing side. I think the best way to teach it is something like apprenticeship. I find that these folks and children make the most dedicated students. Will. I wish I had someone to mentor me in that way years ago. |
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A question for music teachers...
