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Location: Fort Worth, TX | I have company visiting here from Colorado. The guy brought along a luthier built cedar/mahogany dread he recently bought for $800. It's my first exposure to a luthier guitar and this thing is phenomenal. It was built in 1999 and has its share of mojo in the form of dings and rash, but its a cannon that has an astounding voice. He recently tracked down the builder who is a college professor who began by building mandos 40 years ago. He has no web presence or any info online about his lutherie. He said he gets all his commissions from playing out and having people ask him about the guitar he is playing. I can't believe I have struggled for 3 days now with the idea of trading my Stradivarius O Balladeer reissue for this dread. I am the one who proposed it, but haven't committed to it yet. I posted two threads about it on AGF and have taken into account all the replies in examining this guitar. The builder wanted to see the guitar again after all these years and offered a free tuneup for anything it might need. He pronounced it totally healthy. I was concerned because it has lived its life in Denver with average 15% humidity, but it has no issues. I would only do it because I am interested in acquiring again the bluegrass chops I had before switching to bass to fill a role in an orchestra for 15 years. Man, this decision is a STRUGGLE! If I do it, I would have to switch into high gear my search for a nice Elite because now I can't live without an O. I'm just concerned about remorse when I see my beautiful O go to a guy whose strum technique will quickly turn any guitar into Trigger very quickly. Somebody STOP ME! |
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Location: closely held secret | Stop, Dave. |
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Location: Flahdaw | If you like it, do it. Not saying it's not worth every penny, but a "no name" custom guitar is not going to have much resale value down the road. That's just the way it is. But if you plan to keep it and grow old with it, then do what makes you smile. |
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Location: Fort Worth, TX | darkbarguitar - 2012-10-24 10:24 AM
If you like it, do it. Not saying it's not worth every penny, but a "no name" custom guitar is not going to have much resale value down the road. That's just the way it is. But if you plan to keep it and grow old with it, then do what makes you smile.
Seeing as how I'll be lucky to eek out another ten years, I imagine it'll be with me to the grave. Still haven't decided tho. I strive to maintain guitars in pristine condition and this one would look like I'd been on the road with it for 20 years... maybe that's not so bad. I'm just blown away by the voice of this guitar, it beats all the Martins and I've sat in with up to 30 Martins being played at a local bluegrass campground. But of course, I'm blown away by the sound of my Balladeer as well. Guess it's a decision as to how bad i want to get back into bluegrass ultimately. I used to be a lightning fast bluegrasshole. I'll probably trade, especially since I have the builder's contact info now too. Just will have to begin search for the Elite out there waiting for me. |
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | DaveKell - 2012-10-24 8:36 AM
Seeing as how I'll be lucky to eek out another ten years, I imagine it'll be with me to the grave. Still haven't decided tho. I strive to maintain guitars in pristine condition and this one would look like I'd been on the road with it for 20 years... maybe that's not so bad. I'm just blown away by the voice of this guitar, it beats all the Martins and I've sat in with up to 30 Martins being played at a local bluegrass campground. But of course, I'm blown away by the sound of my Balladeer as well. Guess it's a decision as to how bad i want to get back into bluegrass ultimately. I used to be a lightning fast bluegrasshole. I'll probably trade, especially since I have the builder's contact info now too. Just will have to begin search for the Elite out there waiting for me.
If you aren't forced to trade due to finances, why not just buy it so you can enjoy both? |
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Location: Tennessee | Keep the K1111. The grass is actually brown. |
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Location: Fort Worth, TX | I just got back from taking this guitar over to Texas' finest finger picker, he's the guy who offered to trade me his Taylor for the O Balladeer when I took IT over for his assessment. He told me to get over the dings and rash, "that just shows it has life". He said I wouldn't live long enough for the Ovation to ever attain the sound this one has and that he'd like to have this one himself. He picked several intricate pieces all the way up the neck and paused a few times on each one to arpeggiate a chord up the neck and comment "that sound is true". He told me if I don't trade to send the guy over for him to try and make a deal, but if I did trade he wants to borrow this for his next recording session. He said a full 5 times "this is nice", and I'd be the only guy he knows who has a custom guitar this nice. Still, it's with a big twinge of regret my Balladeer will heading down the highway to Colorado tomorrow morning. I still have never heard a nicer sounding O mic'd than mine, but I fully trust my buddy's opinion. Look on the bright side... you won't have me here anymore until I get my Elite that's out there somewhere waiting for me. |
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Location: Flahdaw | I have a beautiful luthier built guitar, englemann over figured maple, cocobolo fretboard, custom bling, made by a guy that graduated from the Roberto Venn School. If a big name guy had built it it would be worth thousands. But no one knows this guy, so I'd be lucky to get a thousand. I don't care....I love it. (then again, he was in financial trouble at the time, so I picked it up for $1200 w/case. I wouldn't have paid $3000 or so for a git from a guy I never heard of) |
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Location: Fort Worth, TX | darkbarguitar - 2012-10-24 2:11 PM
I have a beautiful luthier built guitar, englemann over figured maple, cocobolo fretboard, custom bling, made by a guy that graduated from the Roberto Venn School. If a big name guy had built it it would be worth thousands. But no one knows this guy, so I'd be lucky to get a thousand. I don't care....I love it. (then again, he was in financial trouble at the time, so I picked it up for $1200 w/case. I wouldn't have paid $3000 or so for a git from a guy I never heard of)
There is no info available online for this guy as to his lutherie pursuit, only that he's a professor at an Ivy League college and has written two books. I don't think every luthier out there necessarily has a web presence, by the nature of their trade I can see them being too old school to be involved with computers. I do have his contact info now though and know he has been building guitars and mandolins for 40 years. Having been in a hand/eye coordination trade myself my entire life that's good enough for me. My friend paid $750 for this guitar so I am still ahead by twice the value of the two guitars I traded for the Ovation. I'll definitely miss my O, but I will also definitely have another. A 40 cal Glock comes first though and then I WILL find a nice Elite. |
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | DaveKell - 2012-10-24 12:08 PM
...He said I wouldn't live long enough for the Ovation to ever attain the sound this one has and that he'd like to have this one himself...
Ah, so you're one of those guys who doesn't buy green bananas?  |
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DaveKell - 2012-10-24 12:23 PMA 40 cal Glock comes first though and then I WILL find a nice Elite.
At least you have your priorities straight!
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| I know you already made up your mind, Dave, but I just wanted to chime in to support your decision. Good going!
I'm a new member here, but I have been down this road many times myself and with other folks too (with other brands)... Unless you have some sentimental attachment to an instrument, I always advise folks to remain open to being moved by something else. There's nothing wrong with brand loyalty, believe me, but there's also nothing wrong with reacting positively to surprise from the outside. Every new guitar that I've bought off a wall has been after one of those "blow your hair back" moments, if you know what I mean. Not that I have much hair. Those experiences are few and far between, that's for sure.
If you were actually commissioning a new guitar from a luthier, that'd be a really different conversation. There's a ton of risk down that route. But here you have a guitar that you've had a chance to evaluate and even have other people weigh in. You know what you're getting.
So, you might be sacrificing some durability or some specific feature on the Balladeer that you'll miss, but I think remorse is impossible here. $800 is way below the pain threshold in custom guitar land.
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Location: Fort Worth, TX | Chazmo - 2012-10-24 7:47 PM
I know you already made up your mind, Dave, but I just wanted to chime in to support your decision. Good going!
I'm a new member here, but I have been down this road many times myself and with other folks too (with other brands )... Unless you have some sentimental attachment to an instrument, I always advise folks to remain open to being moved by something else. There's nothing wrong with brand loyalty, believe me, but there's also nothing wrong with reacting positively to surprise from the outside. Every new guitar that I've bought off a wall has been after one of those "blow your hair back" moments, if you know what I mean. Not that I have much hair. Those experiences are few and far between, that's for sure.
If you were actually commissioning a new guitar from a luthier, that'd be a really different conversation. There's a ton of risk down that route. But here you have a guitar that you've had a chance to evaluate and even have other people weigh in. You know what you're getting.
So, you might be sacrificing some durability or some specific feature on the Balladeer that you'll miss, but I think remorse is impossible here. $800 is way below the pain threshold in custom guitar land.
Thanks Chaz... that's one of the best replies on a forum I've ever gotten. I DO know what I'm getting for sure, and man did it ever blow my hair back. I wanted another O for about two decades and it took this Balladeer to persuade me. I've made the guy who's taking it promise me first chance if he ever goes to get rid of it. I'll be okay with this... and I will find an Elite. |
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Location: Fort Worth, TX | The Ovation is on the way to its new home in Colorado. I asked the guy if he wanted to take the pickup out of this dread and he said no, it was in there when he bought it. I looked it up and its a $300 Fishman Rare Earth. I took it back over to Texas' finest finger picker awhile ago to check out the pickup. He played it thru a Trace acoustic amp and it was incredible. This just keeps gettin better. Then, I raised Jim Bruce on Skype in Toulouse, France. First time I talked to him. He has a series of acoustic blues instructional cd's and I learned Doc Watson's Deep River Blues fingerstyle from a Youtube he put out. He told me I nailed Doc's syncopation on it and congratulated me on doing a good job. My day has been made already. Maybe I'll stop being so hard on myself for my perception of my playing. Another friend who has toured with several big name country stars told me my style was similar to some of his favorite Nashville pickers. I have never considered myself to be any darn good at all, but I guess I can lighten up and accept that after all these years I HAVE progressed. Man, maybe I'll even try to develop an ego now! |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Just don't try it here. Deflating egos is too much fun. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Yeah Dave, you saw how far bragging about your evening love fest on the tour bus with Duane Allman got you. We all know how to burst balloons here. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Look forward to hearing some recording that you do with it. |
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Location: Fort Worth, TX | darkbarguitar - 2012-10-25 1:01 PM
Yeah Dave, you saw how far bragging about your evening love fest on the tour bus with Duane Allman got you. We all know how to burst balloons here.
Wrong brother Bob... it was Gregg. I was wearing a denim jacket a girl had sewn a brightly colored embroidered guitar strap onto as a waist band for me. Gregg commented how much he liked the coat. I figured what the heck, this free ride to the next town on his bus and free concert admission was worth it so I took the coat off and gave it to him. Then, he said "I really like those pants..." |
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Location: Tennessee | DaveKell - 2012-10-25 9:19 AM The Ovation is on the way to its new home in Colorado. I'm not surprised. You've been threatening to unload the K1111 since about a week after you got it. I'm glad you finally found something you like. I'd like to hear a recording of your new guitar too. I've never heard of a cedar top guitar being a bluegrass machine ... so I guess this one must be really special. Congrats! |
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Location: Fort Worth, TX | stonebobbo - 2012-10-25 6:57 PM
DaveKell - 2012-10-25 9:19 AM The Ovation is on the way to its new home in Colorado. I'm not surprised. You've been threatening to unload the K1111 since about a week after you got it. I'm glad you finally found something you like. I'd like to hear a recording of your new guitar too. I've never heard of a cedar top guitar being a bluegrass machine ... so I guess this one must be really special. Congrats!
You're right about that, my OCD is acquiring things and promptly getting rid of them. Done it all my life with women, cars and guitars especially. I once briefly owned a 1992 Martin CHD35 with a cedar top. While everything tended to mush together when strummed, it was crystal clear on single note runs all the way across the spectrum. I somewhat found that quality again in this guitar except it is fine strummed as well. The volume is what surprises me about it. The builder of it said he "tap tuned the top", I'll admit I have no idea what that means. He has very large hands and this guitar has a noticeably large soundhole. He said he has to make them that way to reach inside with "fingertip razor blades" to shave the braces until he achieves the tone he wants. He even shaved the first braces visible just inside the soundhole towards the lower bout. The work is actually kind of crude looking but you don't see it unless you're looking for it. I know cedar topped dreads weren't very popular and that Martin stopped making them around 1994. I've been told Lowden makes a real nice one but nobody around here carries Lowdens. I have noticed though that an awful lot of luthier builds ARE cedar tops, and this one proves that if they are done "right" they can be a bluegrass cannon. |
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Location: Flahdaw | DaveKell - 2012-10-25 8:51 PM
The builder of it said he "tap tuned the top", I'll admit I have no idea what that means. He has very large hands and this guitar has a noticeably large soundhole. He said he has to make them that way to reach inside with "fingertip razor blades" to shave the braces until he achieves the tone he wants. He even shaved the first braces visible just inside the soundhole towards the lower bout.
I have noticed though that an awful lot of luthier builds ARE cedar tops, and this one proves that if they are done "right" they can be a bluegrass cannon.
The guy who built one of my customs also "tap tuned" and shaved the braces til he was happy with it. Maybe all are done this way.
Many "luthier" builds are for fingerstyle players, so cedar can be good. But most are custom so YOU pick the top material |
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Location: Fort Worth, TX | I feel the need to explain myself for trading away a 40th anniv Balladeer reissue I had so much praise for at times. Quite awhile ago I took it to a GC here to see about a trade in value. I told them the story of how it was held by an Ovation rep for years before he released it to a music store. After nearly a half hour, the salesman came in and told me they had called the store where I got it and also called the O rep and "got the story on this guitar". He wouldn't elaborate on what that meant, but said they would give me $200 for it in trade against any new guitar in the 1,000 plus price range. I was insulted and left but always concerned about what "the story" was. You'll recall I posted concerns about very pronounced divots that appeared symetrically on both sides of the bridge with medium gauge strings. Also, when it sat out on the stand, I could plainly see large ripples that formed in the top when it was lit from the side. I took all the strings off for two days once and the ripples mostly seemed to go away but returned after it was restrung, but in different places. I began to be alarmed something was very amiss with this instrument. I had previously owned a plethora of acoustics and never observed this happening at all in any others. But still, it carried a phenomenal tone when mic'd in the ensemble I played it in. I began to obsess over this top movement and worried about it constantly. I cautioned my friend I traded it to to use only light gauge strings on it. I am still concerned he is going to call me someday and tell me bracing snapped loose or the top suffered a huge crack and I will feel bad, but he definitely wanted the trade very badly. I will get another O as soon as I can, but I live on a disability income. The money for it will come from my sideline pinstriping at some point, probably not til at least Springtime now. I have no further reason to check in on this forum much anymore now, except to monitor any developments with the recent thread about the possibility of O production picking back up in New Hartford. I would love to see that happen. I, like all of you, believe Ovations no longer receive their due respect and desperately want that to change. I'm glad this place exists to help promote that eventuality I hope. Carry on and I look forward to coming back when I have the proper credentials - that beautiful low mileage Elite I am envisioning owning someday! |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | DaveKell - 2012-10-26 5:10 AM
Carry on and I look forward to coming back when I have the proper credentials
For the record... the only cred you need here is to have an interest in Ovation guitars.
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Cedar Topped Dread Trade For the Stardivarius...
