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Location: Phoenix AZ | At the tour Q&A session I asked what was the official definition of an "FRG". I thought the answer by Rick H. and Frank U. would be of interest and maybe put this question to bed
FRG stands for "Factory Reconditioned Guitar". They are guitars with minor cosmetic flaws that were flagged at final inspection. They are not flaws that were repaired, and in fact are not "reconditioned" per se. They are actually seconds, but the word "second" has bad vibes so they call them FRG's. Some may actually be guitars that were returned from a dealer that caught them as not up to par quality before sale. They are not "slow sellers" or "factory overstock" as some of us have speculated.
So there you have it.
Dave |
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Location: SoCal | FRG or "Factory Reconditioned Guitar": Minor cosmetic flaws that have not been repaired, not "reconditioned" per se, "seconds".
If that's the case, isn't using the word, Reconditioned, misleading?
Recondition implies a corrective action.
Tuppy, thanks for clearing this up. |
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Location: Minden, Nebraska | I agree with Noah. It seems disingenuous, if not misleading.
Thanks, Dave, for being a mensch and asking. |
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| Dave, while I would agree with you, there is still the case of the slow-selling 2003 collector model where it does at least appear possible they slapped FRG on guitars that were not seconds. We never got the bottom line on that story. |
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Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | And we probably never will.....
I would guess that "reconditioned" does apply to the guitars that come back from dealers. But the word seems a stretch from the explanation. Guess they don't want to stamp a "2" on the back of the headstock like Gibson does on FRG Epiphones.
Roger |
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Location: Denver Colorado | So just wondering....
Where / how are you guys finding FRG units for sale in the first place? |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | All I can tell you is what was "officially" told to the group. ie FRG's are "seconds". Maybe it is a stretch to call them "reconditioned", but why are we complaining? FRG's offer us a way to buy cosmetically near-perfect guitars are great prices. Frank did mention that he would like a way to permanently mark the guitars (ie something engraved on the back of the headstock) to prevent shady dealers from passing them off as 1st quality.
As far as Pot_stirrers question about where to buy FRG's, it appears that some very large dealer shave standing orders to take whatever FRG's come out and I think all salespeople have stocksheets that they send to their dealers (like Al, for example) that inform them what if any FRG's are available at any given time.
Whilst FRG is a somewhat controversial topic, I do think it is good that Ovation has stepped up to the quality-plate and no longer ships this stuff out the door as first-quality. From what I have seen of the recent, todays FRG's would have gone out as firsts 10 year ago. Congratulations to Frank and the QA department for tightening up the ship. The next step is to obviously reduce the number of guitars that the QA people have to flag as FRG's.
As far as overstock (like the 2003's), you can subscribe to whatever conspiracy theory you like, but officially the head of the factory says NO 1st quality instruments are labelled FRG just to move them. The whole topic of FRG is pretty much cleared up in my mind (thanks Rick and Frank). And it also explains why we see FRG's almost as soon as we see a new model. For example the 2005 Collector comes out and the first XX guitars get to QA and they flag a few of them as seconds. So the FRG's and the 1st quality ones show up for sale almost simultaneously. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.
Why does it "seem" that there are so many FRG Ovations out there compared to Martin/Gibson/Taylor, etc??? Well, I'm pretty sure that the other companies are more like Ovation of 10 years ago. Anything that's a 9.0 or higher goes out as first quality. At Ovation it's more like 9.9 or better.
By the way, Frank was ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that there would be NO FRG's of the 47RI.
Dave |
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Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | When you're only making less than a hundred of the 47RI, that makes sense....you'd make sure they are ALL top quality. With so few, especially for the premium price charged, they can afford to do that.
I personally have no problem with how Ovation chooses to handle FRGs, other than agreeing with Frank that there needs to be a more permanent way of marking them....a bowl label isn't good enough. You see those "gone" all the time on eBay guitars.
Roger |
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Location: NJ | to buy frg's I get a list from my salesman |
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Location: San Angelo, Texas | Or, as a dealer I can go on to the Kaman site and see what stock is available on a real-time basis. |
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Location: Keller, TX | Originally posted by Tupperware:
As far as overstock (like the 2003's), you can subscribe to whatever conspiracy theory you like, but officially the head of the factory says NO 1st quality instruments are labelled FRG just to move them.
Dave This question was put to the owner. He emphatically denied labeling guitars as FRGs just to move them. I, for one, believe him. |
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Location: NJ | Originally posted by GregoryS:
Or, as a dealer I can go on to the Kaman site and see what stock is available on a real-time basis. Can you tell me about this because I just checked with the Kanman IT director and he told me it is NOT available in "real time" for FRG stock. |
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Location: Anchorage, Alaska | Again, How can they let Seconds and blems on these limited editions go out the door. I can see it with the "regular" models but when we purchase a limited edition we expect it to be limited to the number of units advertised. The added numbers, not to mention the FRG's just dilute the quality of the model line as a whole.
Senerio: I mean they said there will be 100 of a particular "limited" edition. Then they made say 100 with an additional 10 that go out as FRG's. 10% of this model are factory seconds. Now there is all the talk about how many of this particular model have had problems... This may be pety but it just does not seem right. I'm sure that there would be some questions if they wind up making 2 or 3 times as many of the #47's as they say they will, and several of those go out as FRG's. I know they say this WILL NOT HAPPEN but it seems as though it has before. End of Rant... Sorry. |
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Location: NJ | fly guy
if there are 100 then there are 100 including frg.
overuns do happen especially including prototypes and working models |
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Location: Carle Place, NY | Rick Hall emphasized that FRG's represent a very small percentage of the the total Ovation production, generally less than 1%. They tend to get a lot of attention here though because they sell for a lot less than the standard retail price. Still, the vast majority of guitars coming out of the factory are first quality.
Rick also explained that each guitar as it moves through production has an ID tag. If one of the techs notices a "blemish" they mark it on the tag. Those guitars then become FRG's, solely on the basis of the tag even if if the flaw is not really apparent on final inspection. The other FRG's are guitars that get returned to the factory. |
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What is an "FRG" ???
