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| The Ovation Fan Club | ||
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| Random quote: "Jazz... isn't that just a series of mistakes disguised as musical composition?” - David St. Hubbins of Spinal Tap |
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| Forums Archive -> The Vault: 2002-2003 | Message format | |
thunderbolt |
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Joined: October 2002 Posts: 8 Location: coral springs florida | Guys, it sounds like you don't remember why you (or anyone else) ever picked up a guitar. For most it was "seeing" one first. (Just remember the Beatles, before them, we all were watching Lawrence Welk every Saturday night and taking Accordion lessons) If you put an Ovation (or any other brand) on a t-shirt, and one of the "back-side" (back street, for those who don't get the humor) boys wore it on a video played in heavy rotation on vh-1 or M TV, that guitar would see an increase in sales (not to mention popularity). Don't any of you remember the Nehru jacket? As far as electric guitar vs. acoustic guitar, again you don't understand the guitar market. Ovation has always been bought as a flattop for basically solidbody rock musicians. And one of the reasons they have lost market share is their inability to see they have "priced" themselves away from the demographic. In the 1970's when a boomer was in their teens and 20's they had their Les Paul and/or Fender Stratocaster and maybe $300-$400 for an acoustic. The Ovation was in that range and the neck felt familiar (with it's adjustable, and sometimes very low action). It was a no brainer. And before you start talking about the "first real "plugged in flattop", let me say I sold Ovations at the time and I sold an equal amount of each electric 1611 and acoustic 1111. Now most boomers are very well employed, and have huge solid body collections and when they go to buy a flattop they have $2000+ to spend. Well they are buying Taylor, and you ask why? “IT FEELS LIKE AN ELECTRIC”, the very same reason they once bought an Ovation. It may also “piss you off” to know most of the people at Taylor acknowledge that “Jewel” sold more guitars for them than any of their other endorsers. The point is the market for this guitar we all think so highly of is young musicians “on a budget” who primarily play electric solid body guitar, but want something else “for the beach”, “to write songs on”, etc, etc. Kaman has decided they know better, and have priced the guitar to Boomers who have moved on to other brands. If a teen could walk into a music store and have his choice of a $595 Martin or a $700 Balladeer, what do you think he'll pick? Eric Clapton is playing for the other team, you think any serious acoustic player cares that Clapton endorses Martin? Martin is smart enough to understand it's all about “solid body” players, even for their high end. It's about price, but mostly it's about understanding “who the customer is”. The guys in CT need to wake up. | ||
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| Paul Templeman |
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Joined: February 2002 Posts: 5750 Location: Scotland | "Ovation has always been bought as a flattop for basically solidbody rock musicians" I'd have to disagree with this statement. This is certainly the current marketing ploy, but historically has never been the case. From '66 - the early 70's Ovations were acoustic guitars only. When the electros were developed at the request of Glen Campbell they became the only serious choice for an amplified acoustic, for musicians of all styles (just take a look at a mid-70's artist rosta, everyone played Ovations) and they remained the only serious choice until the competition, which was just about everyone who made acoustic guitars, wanted a piece of the electro-acoustic action in the late 70's. It seems Ovation marketing have thrown in the towel & for the last 7 or 8 years decided that they should market the guitars as "acoustics for rock guitarists" A big mistake in my view. Of the numerous Ovation acoustics I own, they were all acquired because they are great acoustic instruments first & stage tools second. I certainly do not want my acoustic guitars to have the "feel" of an electric AS for pricing, USA Ovations have never been cheap, but the "street" price, especially in the USA for guitars of this quality, is very competitive. In another post someone has said he has the opportunity to get a new Adamas SMT for around a grand US. [ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] | ||
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| alpep |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10582 Location: NJ | I think the elite T has addressed the price issue and from what my sources tell me is doing very well. Plus the guitar is a good instrument for the price. I have played the lower end Martins and aside from the decal on the headstock they bare little resemblence to the expensive brother. Which is exactly what Ovation's problem is with the celebrity line they are too close to the usa product. I started playing guitar because that was the instrument cowboys played. I watched Roy Rogers and the sons of the pioneers very saturday morning. I didn't get an old epiphone or Gibson archtop or jumbo when I started either. but that is How I got started. I do agree that exposure no matter by a guitarist, singer songwriter, or boy-girl band wanna be star is good. Glen Campbell was the perfect guy in the beginning he was a respected studio guitarist musician and had his own tv show. Sure they sold tons of guitars because Glen made it OK the resoning being "if this guy will play an ovation it MUST be ok and I should try one" Robert Fripp and his guitar craft people use Ovation legends super shallow in black. I never seen an anything with Fripp as an endorsor. Al Dimeiola usese Ovations and is a respected guitarist. We have seen scores of respected guitarists using Ovations. The problem is that they are not of the "younger" generation. they are all older established acts. I absolutely loathe jewel but if she played an Ovation it would then open the company up to many others who would look at Ovation in a different light. In another thread someone said well Ovation shoves Melissa down our throats with their ads. I think she is the only Adamas endorsor that I know of and she has sold tons of guitars to women. That is a fact. So why should't they use her? ultimately we need some new blood in the ad campaigns and they may not be people that you know or recognize and that would be OK becuase someone else may do that. Many people say they should release the old Adamas 1 with all the fancy stuff. I agree but would that appeal to the younger "stealth" generation? I am not so sure. the success of the elite T shows that the stealth stuff appeals to them. | ||
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| thunderbolt |
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Joined: October 2002 Posts: 8 Location: coral springs florida | Paul, You didn't understand what I meant, I know Ovation was "acoustic only" in the early days, But I don't ever remember any flattop players using them. Josh White? While there was a Folk boom on in the 60's with many "rediscover" blues men leading the way I would say it was "Keith Partridge" aka David Cassidy, that sold the lions share of Ovation guitars in the early days. Glen Campbell as well, but Glen is hardly what I would call a Flattop player. That's like calling Al Dimeola a flattop player, he's not. I stand behind my statement (and 30 years of selling guitars) Ovation is an Electric guitar players flattop. | ||
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| Paul Templeman |
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Joined: February 2002 Posts: 5750 Location: Scotland | There have been a lot of serious acoustic guitarists and singer/songwriters who were Ovation users. A number of factors including the perception that they are "acoustics for electric players", wood v synthetic snobbery, increased competition from other manufacturers & poor marketing of the guitars have put an end to that. Taken from memory & endorsement lists from some old catalogs, how about: John McLaughlin, Tony Rice, Charlie Byrd, various members of Fairport Convention, Tim Hardin, Thom Bresh, Cat Stevens, Dave Cousins, Bob Seeger, Jerry Jeff Walker, Roy Harper, Jon Stewart, Dennis Locoriere & Ray Sawyer, Mark O'Connor, John Hartford, John Mcuen, Joan Armatrading, Richie Havens, Steve Winwood, Paul Weller, Larry Coryell, Waylon Jennings, The Dillards, Bill Harrell, the BeeGees, Hank Snow, Mac Davis, Tom T Hall, Larry McNeely, Buffy St Marie, Booby Goldsbro, Adrian Legg, Preston Reed, Paul McCartney, Loggins & Messina, Jim Croce, Roy Clark, Jerry Reed, Greg Lake, Neil Diamond. Paul [ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] | ||
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| Mr. Ovation |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7222 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | "if this guy will play an ovation it MUST be ok and I should try one" In another thread we addressed this and danced around the topic.. but this qoute from Al is what Paul and I were talking about. Sure the few artists we see with Ovations make out little hearts go pitter patter.. but what got me turned on to Ovation solid bodies was seeing Roy Clark and Glen Campbell play them and later Tom Scholz at a concert. In fact, I already owned an acoustic (bought with S&H Greenstamps) and the way I got my first Ovation acoustic was that my parents were big Campbell fans. And I believe Al's qoute was almost exactly what they said... "if he is playing them, then they must be good". That's what I would like to see (or feel from) current endorsers. | ||
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| Bailey |
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Joined: May 2002 Posts: 3005 Location: Las Cruces, NM | Thunderbolt You are again defining a perceived opinion of Ovation guitars, and I say perceived because the collectors who people this board argue otherwise and with obviously good reason because they own many of the high quality acoustics that Ovation has produced. We all commented on the Elite T a few months back, good or bad, but generally favorably, and I just got a catalogue from Interstate Music where the only Ovation listed is the Elite T so it is being promoted and it probably is going to work. Now I am going to say something controversial, "who gives a shit". Popular acceptance has nothing to do with quality, good sound, great presence over the years, I don't throw away my Viper because PPPP plays a signature tele, and my 30 year old acoustic does not make me want a plywood Martin because it is advertised. QUALITY is QUALITY and that's why us ancient people with our ancient guitars plug along with the same experiences of young people wondering why our guitars etc. sound so good compared to their plywood Martin. Bailey | ||
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| thunderbolt |
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Joined: October 2002 Posts: 8 Location: coral springs florida | Settle down boys, I've been an Ovation owner as long as I can remember. I think they are exceptionally good sounding “acoustic” guitars. But that has little to do with why the majority of these guitars (or any other guitar) sells in mass numbers. I don't want to start a long-winded argument; I just wanted to chime in on the absurdity of who is a valid “endorser” of any guitar. If Ovation wants to “grow” its market, it needs to think “less” is more. Less options in the line, less colors, less optional “Collectors” series. They confuse the customer (not to mention the salesman, having come from both sides of the deal, I can tell you how easy it used to be to sell Ovations when they had a sensible catalog.) Martin (as a comparison) has had the same “codes” or model # system for 100 + years. Very easy to understand. Only recently have they started chasing the “celebrity endorsement” they so long avoided. I think they have watered down the brand, and they also have lost market share to Taylor (and the like). Having one key endorser (with their own signature model) is fine (with many satellite endorsers (who play regular production models) to support the line) is important to any brand. But lately it seems they (Martin) are making celebrity models for anyone they can talk into it. Some of these guys were more famous for playing Ovations than Martins (Jim Croce, Paul Simon, to name a couple off the top of my head). At least Ovation hasn't jumped into that sort of thing. (Yet) From Paul's email “Taken from memory & endorsement lists from some old catalogs, how about: John McLaughlin, Tony Rice, Charlie Byrd, various members of Fairport Convention, Tim Hardin, Thom Bresh, Cat Stevens, Dave Cousins, Bob Seeger, Jerry Jeff Walker, Roy Harper, Jon Stewart, Dennis Locoriere & Ray Sawyer, Mark O'Connor, John Hartford, John Mcuen, Joan Armatrading, Richie Havens, Steve Winwood, Paul Weller, Larry Coryell, Waylon Jennings, The Dillards, Bill Harrell, the BeeGees, Hank Snow, Mac Davis, Tom T Hall, Larry McNeely, Buffy St Marie, Booby Goldsbro, Adrian Legg, Preston Reed, Paul McCartney, Loggins & Messina, Jim Croce, Roy Clark, Jerry Reed, Greg Lake, Neil Diamond.” I'll give you a few of these players as Acoustic, and even some are known to folks as Ovation players, but with Adrian Legg, Preston Reed and Joan Armatrading as the only exceptions, the rest of these players are mostly “passed the prime” of their endorsement potential, and some others (Paul McCartney, The Bee Gees are still viable, but they really don't use Ovations anymore) In the world of music (with country being an exception) “you're only as good as your “next” hit”! If your not on the TV, your not “in the game” This goes back to Glen Campbell and David Cassidy, hell they are more responsible than the whole list above for selling Ovations, and they can be seen on TV in reruns (get my point). If Ovation could get M TV to have a few “roundbacks” laying around the “Beach house” for a summer of their show (by the same name) you would see an increase in the sale of “roundback” guitars. The viewer wouldn't even need to see the brand name, the body is so distinct, anyone watching will be able to pick one out at the local store. Think how big it would be if they got one (or more) to Survivor (the TV show, not the band) or any popular show. That "70's show should definitely get a call; have one of these in Kelso's van (I may be wrong on that spelling). These guitars do have a “retro” look, and they should capitalize on it. Their ad department should be thinking “bell bottoms and belly shirt” wearing models on the beach with sunburst finished Balladeers. Oh and they sound good as well, but unless someone picks one up, they'll never know! | ||
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| thunderbolt |
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Joined: October 2002 Posts: 8 Location: coral springs florida | I'm not apposed to “non-wood” guitars (hell I own an Adamas, and of the many fine guitars I own, that one gets more use than any of the others). I also have several 1960s, "70s and 80's Ovations. I haven't “plugged” one in (in) years, I use them “in the house” as an alternative to the other “box” guitars I own. I have to say I've been a bit disappointed in some of the newer guitars from Kaman. It seems they put more emphasis on the “color” or figured wood, than they do in the “sonically pleasing” department. Surly you've gone into one of the “big-box” music depots and seen the guitars on the wall and maybe you even played one or two. Am I off base? It seems funny to me that while a “Renaissance” is going on (over the past 10 years) in the field of luthiery, Ovation has done little to “join in”. (Bill ya gotta go back and fix that thing) Santa Cruz, Taylor, Collings, Breedlove, Martin, and even Gibson have been building excellent “factory” flattops. (And selling to former Ovation owners.) By the way, I don't know many guitar players who only own one instrument, so while a guy might have an older Ovation, he's not looking to Ovation for his “up-scale” acoustic. But that's not the market anyway. The market is with teenagers and younger 20-somethings who ARE on a budget, but who want a good value when they spend $400-$700 on an instrument that is NOT their main guitar. That price range is littered with options today. When I got my first Ovation it was either the 1111-1 (for $325) or? A guild D 25 for slightly “more” money. Those early 1970's Guilds were (and still are) built like an ocean liner, way too heavy and hard to get a “sound” on. Not to mention the neck on the less expensive Guilds of that period were a bit “unmanageable”. The Gibsons of that time were pricey and complete crap. Al-b-it, the necks were slim like an electric, but they also sounded like a solid body (I don't remember anyone using them back than). The import stuff (Penco, Madera (imported by Guild), Greco, and Ibanez) was worse. (I know there are exceptions on this, I'm painting with a wide brush and coming from a merchant's point of view, as well as a consumer) Today you can buy a Washburn D-10 for under $200, it will have a solid-spruce top, real Grover tuners, and it will set up nice and sound fine (for most entry level ears), you can also look to dozens of other manufactures in the under $299 range that kick ass. Most have an action much lower than the import guitars of the 70's, and for a price “Less” than 30 years ago. What else cost less for more? (A new VW Super Beetle was $2495 in 1973, I believe you can buy a new one for somewhere in the $15,000+ range) As for why a 30 year old guitar sounds better than a new one, that I can comment on. I have made my living selling vintage (we used to call them used) guitars for the past 30 years. Like it or not, I sold Ovations side by side with pre war Martins, Nationals, Gibson (both solid body and flattop) pre CBS Fenders and many other 6 string things. Many of the guys I sold '59 Les Paul Standards to also bought Ovations from me. They could tell quality, they were paying $3500 for a Les Paul, when a new one at the time was $400 (or so), but the quality of a mid to late "70's Gibson was inconsistent (to say the least). This customer was open minded, and while he could afford a Martin, he like the feel of the Ovation (somewhat slightly “V'd” neck) These Ovations sounded great even back then! A 30-year-old guitar that is being played by a guy who has been playing it for those 30years will sound better than it will in the hands of that young admirer. Not just because of the years of playing experience, but also the comfort level between the player and his “old friend”. I don't believe that a guitar can get better as time and years pass. Most great old guitars I've had through my hands started off their lives that way. There are many “crappie” 30-year-old guitars, and some very fine new ones. | ||
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| Paul Templeman |
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Joined: February 2002 Posts: 5750 Location: Scotland | I would aggree that my list of endorsees are for the most part, way past their sell-by date. That was not my point. First of all it was to illustrate, that certainly at a professional level, the guitars were in the hands of musicians who were primarily acoustic guitar players. Secondly it was to contrast with the current endorsees. It would seem they had an artist relations program back then which actively got the instruments into the hands of lots of high-profile acoustic players. From my own perspective I would agree that endorsment is "absurd". I buy instruments that sound & feel right to me, not because (insert name of star) plays one. However the hero worship/credibility thing is a major driving force in many areas of retail & is a factor, certainly with younger musicians, which will make decisions for them. Paul [ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] | ||
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| alpep |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10582 Location: NJ | real grover tuners now are made in china and are horrible IMHO. exposure is exposure put an ovation in the hands of all those boy bands who cares? they will get noticed again and then serious players will look at them too. in the seventies you had glen campbell and roy clark you also had the partridge family. ON one hand repsected players on the other a hand in the youth market. there must be a balance | ||
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| Mr. Ovation |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7222 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I'm not exactly sure if this point is going to come out right but here goes.... There is not a question as to the quality of Ovation guitars, but I think the current endorsements do not reflect that Quality. In fact, I would say most of the USA made Ovations are "sold" by word of mouth, as any advertising or other marketing I have seen only makes sence to someone who ALREADY OWNS an Ovation. The more inexpensive Ovations are being bought by students and children as an axe to learn on because for the money, you get an affordable indesctructable instrument... and the sound isn't really in the equation, although they do sound good. Although Ovation seems to sell very well, I think it could do better, much better. I would guess the "numbers" are in the Celeb line, and not the USA line. I perceive (and I'm not alone) that Ovation is primarily an importer of roundback guitars and they make a few high-end USA models. The USED to be known as a high-end USA Made guitar line, that also sold some less expensive models. (not necessarily imported) [ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: Mr. Ovation ] | ||
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| stonebobbo |
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Joined: August 2002 Posts: 8307 Location: Tennessee | I have really enjoyed this thread (along with the Shania/Elton thread) and appreciate the comments and opinions of everyone, especially those of you have been selling fine instruments for all these years. My own opinions, random musings, stray brainwaves, and disjointed thoughts: 1. For Ovation to make the resurgence talked about, they need to find artists who are ABOUT to come on the scene and redefine a sound. How many people had their ears opened when Cat Stevens hit the airwaves? As a young teenager at the time, I was incredibly affected by the new way he made music, and directly coincided with Ovation making a big move in the market (no offense intended towards GC, of course). The other artist who really drove me to lust after an Ovation was Dave Mason when was playing both a 6 and 12 string in concert ... and it didn't hurt to learn he played the 12-string on Hendrix's recording of All Along The Watchtower -- which sort of negates the argument of primarily electric vs. primarily acoustic (bummer he's an Alvarez man now). Having artists who are of boomer age as endorsees will actually drive the young buyers away. So Ovation needs to do segmented marketing with crafted messages to appeal to the different demographics... which by the looks of their Artists page on the website is actually happening (and quite well!). But with marketing, the seeds that are planted last year and this year will not really grow into sales until next year and the year after. Patience is a virtue in this case (as long as you're on the right path). 2. WE all know about the quality of Ovations, but all the kids I know in the 13 to 21 year range think the quality sucks. Why? All those damn lacquer cracks!! I know half a dozen kids who all got CS257s and every one got a long crack within a year or so. So they sold the "broken" guitars on ebay and moves to "plywood" Martins or Takamines, etc. Ovation needs to find a way to solve this cracking problem so the poor quality image goes way. None of the kids dispute that the guitars look cool, but image is everything and a guitar with an unsightly crack is damaged goods. 3. IMHO, Ovation should kill off the SuperShallow bowl line except for on the very high end. Make it a Pro-level Performance guitar on Elites and Legends. On the low end line, they simply sound shitty when playing them in a guitar store alongside competitive wooden boxes. I spent a couple of hours last weekend in my local guitar store, playing a variety of Taylors, Martins, Gibsons, Takamines, etc. The only Ovations on hand were some low end Celebrities and a couple of CS257s (all SS) which were showing list price tags of $500 - 800. I know my deep and mid-bowls sound better than than all the others I played (and my 13 year old said so out loud to the sales jerk), but the SS Ovations were thin and hollow compared to anything else except the Johnsons and Washburns. That perception would be eliminated with only mids and deeps in the line. The youngsters who want to plug in at the store all gravitate to the knock off Strats, Pauls, and Vs. Let's be real, when people buy acoustic guitars they play them unplugged 95% of the time, unless you're a performer. Hence the Pro line idea. 4. Speaking of looking cool, Ovations have that down pat. I for one think all the colors (green, blue, purple, quilted, etc) and interesting woods are a big draw for the younger crowd. As I said, at that age the look is as important as anything. My trusty first ovation became mine mainly because of its color ... a nice red mahogany stain. Much cooler than natural for sure, and I picked it over some more deluxe models precisely because of how it looked. Despite all the abuse it has taken over the last 20 years, it's still my favorite guitar to look at. 5. Ovation has made a great move with the Elite T. USA made, mid-bowl, great sound, and radical look. Ovation needs to build on this, and perhaps go for some more colors like they've put on the 257 line and they'll attract a lot of new young buyers. I also think they should consider doing something similar on a non-cutaway Balladeer for the more traditional look ... which would appeal to a slightly different segment of young musicians as I've addressed in a previous post. A price point of $700 is not out of line or range for these buyers... competing directly with the "plywood" Martins and Takamine 341, etc. 6. Etheridge IS good for the cause. I also think Kravitz is, too. Despite the airplay of his electric stuff, on the CDs I have of his it seems that at least half of what he records is acoutically based. Hell, the Kravitz stuff I play are the acoustic tunes, although I have been know to pull out the Hamer and shake the walls with a couple of his tunes. Sheesh, sorry for the length. I could probably go on, but the thoughts are getting sucked out by the flashbacks. :-) | ||
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| cliff |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 14842 Location: NJ | "My Two Cents" When Ovation decided to "diverge" into these various entities, the name "Ovation" should have remained with that which made it the company that it is (or was), - a USA manufacturer of quality acoustic guitars. Period. All of the other import variations should have stayed under the "Applause (- by Ovation)" moniker. The revenue from these various lesser-priced models would have still been generated, and "Ovation" would've still had the recognition, branding, and reputation that it always had. There is entirely TOO MUCH visibility of the import line which is unwittingly deceiving the "uneducated" consumer (and salesperson) that this is what Ovation is all about. The "entry level" model for Ovations should've remained at the Balladeers. The Celebrities should've been the flashy, high-end Applauses. If only I were king . . . . . . . . . | ||
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| moody, p.i. |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 15664 Location: SoCal | I'm into big O's. | ||
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| Paul Templeman |
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Joined: February 2002 Posts: 5750 Location: Scotland | I'm getting very scared, right here. You guys is wierd. | ||
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| Bailey |
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Joined: May 2002 Posts: 3005 Location: Las Cruces, NM | Well, I should be happy as I got to say something controversial, but I have to agree with Thunderbolt, Paul T, Paul M, dubyatoo, and all that have jumped in on this theme. From what I see of today's music, our ideas of acoustic are miles away from the performer's ideas of acoustic. Have any of you seen an acoustic instrument miked rather than plugged in other than on a bluegrass show. How is a young guitar buyer going to judge good acoustic sound if he/she has never heard it? We all speak from the pleasant experience of hearing a quality acoustic guitar with all it's wooden overtones ringing out in our living rooms and jam sessions and our judgement is based on that foundation. If all music you had heard came from "acoustic" pickups you would probably think all this talk of spruce tops and deep bowls was silly, after all the sound comes out of the amp, and all that matters is that the guitar pumps the image. BUT, I think the time is ripe for a return to real acoustic sound, look at O Brother, Nickle Creek, etc.. Some modern acoustic player is going to become a star playing either a vintage guitar or a quality new one through a mike because mikes and sound equipment have improved also to the point that you can present that real acoustic sound in all it's glory. Anybody want to lay bets? Bailey | ||
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| thunderbolt |
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Joined: October 2002 Posts: 8 Location: coral springs florida | Ok lets try this at a normal hour and see if I make more sense of it. The Ovation player (past and present) is different guy (gal). Trust me on this; I've sold thousands of them. For one, they are played but both sexes. And I'd say more than the 10 % other makers' get of the female persuasion. Is it attributed to Melissa? Maybe, some of it. Nancy Wilson certainly turned a generation of lady players onto them 20 years before, so lets tip our hats to her, and give some credit where due. Joan Armitrading, while slightly more “regional” in popularity, did her best and added to the troops in the Northeast. Different (to say the least). And the customer who was open minded enough to listen to these artist, were also influenced by their chose of equipment. Both men and women. It's not other guitar builders who are Ovations main competition anyway. It's turntables, skateboards, motorbikes, 200+ channels on the boob tube, computer games (and web sites). How many of you had those kinds of options in the years of grammar and high school? I'd come home after school and there were 3 channels to watch (none of which were on 24 hours a day), skateboards were for California “fags”, not to mention tennis or any other “girly sport”. You could only play in a dirt lot (if you lived close to one) with the 15-20 other guys from you neighborhood. Baseball in spring, Football in the fall and winter lasted a long time. Summers were for the beach (bring your Ovation, they don't melt in the sun like other brands, and they are a better chick magnet than that Yorkshire Terrier anyway) If you told someone you were a musician, it didn't involve plugging in a turntable to a pair of speakers and “playing a record”. You sat with a turntable all right, for hours moving the needle back and forth trying to “ape” the solo from “And your Bird can sing”. When after 18 months or so you could almost do it (completely wrong, but your friends were still impressed) and you played in someone's backyard using some completely useless Tesico amp for a PA, using some unlabeled import with action so high you could use it to slice cheese (if you needed to). You get the point. We had nothing better to do! Music was everything, and it was mysterious as well. You wanted to see your favorite band on TV, they maybe came on once or twice a year, and it was an event. Now turn on M TV or Vh-1 (cmt, or any of the other dozen or so) and you'll get “sensory overload”. Why do you think an act has such a short “shelf life”? They don't “burn out”, the audience does. But the potential guitarist has a much more distracting “afternoon” to deal with. He (or she) will only “sit-down” long enough to devour some junk food, watch TV or surf the web. I blame it on the remote control. Our country is overweight (60% according to a recent study), maybe that will save the guitar industry. Think about it, a fat (PC alert" overweight") teenager will “not” be distracted by friends (they most likely won't have any), not tying themselves up on a weekend with lots of plans for “what to do”. And wanting peer acceptance, they will all take up the guitar and “get popular”. This will cause a chain reaction, where said teen will spend more time practicing the guitar, less time in front of the TV (computer, etc), less time eating junk food, losing the required weight (guitarist are famously thin), scoring a gig, meeting someone of the opposite sex (or same sex, hey it's the new millennium) falling in love, having sex (this is good for the skin of a teen (I hear) with a condom please) getting marred, have little ones, grow old and die. And by the way unlike skating and tennis, basketball etc, you CAN play till your 100! OK I got off and digressed. I started this around 4pm yesterday, and picked it up this morning at 3:30am, Sorry. But this is “MOSTLY” true. | ||
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| Paul Templeman |
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Joined: February 2002 Posts: 5750 Location: Scotland | Bailey, when Steve Earle toured his "Mountain" album with the Del McCoury band a couple of years ago they did it the old way, with the band stood around a single mike (it was a large diaphragm Audio Technica condenser) and moving in and out for solos. I think there was an extra mike on the double bass. The sound sucked. You make a very valid point, but miking acoustic instruments for a large audience is a nightmare, always has been, probably always will be. It's not impossible but needs a highly skilled engineer, a very flat high-quality (expensive!) sound system & a lot of EQ. Most people will live with the impurity of a pickup, but equally most people think the electro sound is how an acoustic is supposed to sound. Thunderbolt, you are so right about the DJ culture. I teach aspiring DJ's at the college I work at. Don't get me started on that one. | ||
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| stonebobbo |
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Joined: August 2002 Posts: 8307 Location: Tennessee | I make some good points Thunderbolt, but maybe its a regional thing just I'm just not buying all of it. Perhaps it's because I was (and still am) one of those California "fags" on the skateboard :cool: . Because of my kids, I am still fairly dialed into whats happening with them and their freaky friends. There has always been something new that kids would try ... while our parents wanted us to play Tom Dooley on nylon string guitars, we found a way to get our hands on a Silvertone and a cheap amp and turn it up until we tore up the speaker. Just when we found the holy grail of a Strat through a clean Champ, someone hooked a fuzz box through a cranked Marshall. Then some former moptops hired Magic Alex to build them a series of capacitors and transistors and there were all these electronic sounds -- sheesh ... blasphemy! Jeez, what are Walsh and Frampton doing with that stinking tube in their mouth? And what was that Tom Scholtz thinking? Only to be replaced by all those British bands using synthezisers to make ... hell, you can't call that music ... it's computers! And then, don't it just beat all ... they start sampling old tunes while someone scratches up some vinyl! The point I'm making is that the next generation is always looking for a new sound to add to the mix ... turntables are just the latest in a long line. But underneath the new sound, there is always a bass line, some guitar work, druns/percussion and so on behind it. Soon it will be something new before long for all of us to bemoan yet again. Sorta reminds me of that old Plato line about (and I paraphrase) "kids these days ... ". The latest style of music for the youngsters is "Emo", which just so happens to involve acoustic guitars and "emotional" lyrics. And when they sit around and play, they are not plugged in. They are looking for a "pure" acoustic sound ... and most can appreciate the beauty of a classic open wooden sound. Sure, there are still lots of electrics and amps, but there is quite a breadth of music styles out there, and the trend will continue. I see the market for Ovation as very bright, and it is not necessarily just "plugged in". The point about the boob tube is valid, yet that same argument was being made when I was in grammar school even when we only had channels 2 through 13 to dial. There were plenty of "fat" kids at school and our parents were bombarded with how crappy our diets were while they pumped us full of bologney, whole milk, chunk tuna packed in oil, and cheeseburgers. We had motor bikes, skateboards, surfboards, the dirt field, playboy magazines, and 45s to distract us. We picked up guitars, basses, and drums to be cool for sure, same as today. We wanted to be able to play that Dino, Desi & Billy song so that cute girl would let us carry her books home. Just like now, it was all about getting laid ... some of us went the music route, some the drama club, some started building hotrods, some played football, and some of us losers tried all of them at the same time just to hedge our bets. But the pleasure of learning our craft stuck with a lot of us, just as it will stick with a lot of today's little monsters ... nothing has really changed in today's world (except for D,D&B). Personally, I think all the nonsense about today's kids gets reported only because there are 4700 cable news channels that need a story. We were a helluva lot more screwed up as a generation than our current teenagers. What's all this got to do with this board? I dunno, just a plea that Ovation keep their eye on the next generation so that in 30 years they will all be speaking to a BB through their implanted headsets sharing love stories about the wonderful guitars Ovation made back in '03 and how f*#ked up both Ovation and the current generation are. | ||
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| Bailey |
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Joined: May 2002 Posts: 3005 Location: Las Cruces, NM | Right on stonebobbo You forgot to mention joining the Army to become a hero and get some action that never worked. Paul T I taped a session of Steve Earle and the Del McCoury band doing the songs from the "Mountain" album on TV and it was great, they worked from a single mike as you described and all the instruments came through sounding great acoustically. That was one of the things that prompted my diatribe about kids not hearing acoustic instruments. I didn't buy the CD, and haven't heard it, but if they screwed up making it than the engineer is at fault. And yes, it is hard to make acoustic instruments sound good in a large venue but only because most sound people today are too lazy to try to get an acoustic sound. I went to folk festivals in the 70's where the sound of acoustic players was close to reality in 5000 person audience halls so it's not impossible. Bailey | ||
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| Paul Templeman |
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Joined: February 2002 Posts: 5750 Location: Scotland | Bailey, I was refering to the live shows. The Mountain album is very well recorded. It sounds like it was made using mostly conventional close-miking & overdub techniques but they toured it the traditional bluegrass way. They did Letterman like that also, the performance was great but the sound IMHO was passable at best. The live concert I saw was a dissapointment. The system was on the point of feedback the entire time & the whole thing lacked clarity, punch & balance. Some people at the back of the room asked for a refund & left. This was in a 2000ish capacity venue. Some reveiws I read said the sound at some shows on the tour was great, others said it was terrible. As I said, it's down to the engineer, the system & the room acoustics, but this is the 21st century & audiences should not have to accept sub-standard or inconsistent sound for the sake of tradition. Maybe if they'd close-miked each instrument it would have improved matters. Bluegrass bands played around 1 mike not from choice but because that's what the technology at that time would allow. I'm a huge admirer of Steve Earle but I felt he'd let the side down with this. Incidentally I was quite amused that Del McCoury fell out with Earle because of Earle's "constant profanity" | ||
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| Bailey |
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Joined: May 2002 Posts: 3005 Location: Las Cruces, NM | Paul T Steve Earle has a problem and a place in today's music and I won't get into it. My experience of acoustic music was affected by the folk festivals that were set up in the 70's by Mike Seeger at San Diego State Folk festival. They set up the sound system to work with acoustic players and it worked. I, of course, was out in the parking lot playing interminal versions of Soldiers Joy. Bailey [ November 04, 2002: Message edited by: Bailey ] | ||
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