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| The Ovation Fan Club | ||
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| Random quote: "Ovation Guitars really don't get the respect they deserve!" - Alex Pepiak |
 Big Time Ragin'
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| Forums Archive -> The Vault: 2002-2003 | Message format | |
musicamex |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 873 Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | it's not the quality of the guitars ovation is making, but the fact that the entire product spectrum are thought of as ovations. i realize that there is a market for applause as well as the highest end ovations made. my point is that rather than having all of the guitars lumped together as ovations, that the entry level guitars that have little human contact in the manufacturing process were marketed as such under a seperate name that didn't say ovation anywhere on it. maybe my business model would fail making guitars, but it worked well for me as an architectural metalsmith. my mentor, francis whitaker, told me early on in my career, "the bottom is crowded, but there is always room at the top". he told me that if i made $50 firesets i would be known for that and if i made $40,000 gates i would become known for that. did i want to mass produce 800 firesets, becoming nothing more than an extension of the machines i ran or produce 1 set of gates that represented the best i could be? i followed his advice and retired comfortably at 44 to pursue other interests. at that time i had 11 employees and a government certified apprenticeship program. one of my students now owns the studio. even though we also made production items as well, they were marketed under another name, and the "by hammer and hand" trademark and name only went on the high quality custom ironwork we produced. i always thought of ovation as a maverick sort of company that bucked the norm. they looked for clients or customers that weren't sheep and were willing to think for themselves about design and what really sounded best instead of the virtually unchanged guitars offered by other companies. in their high end guitars, ovation continues that tradition. sure, electronics and manufacturing techniques are better today than in '68. but i am sending this message allot differently than i would have in '68 too. taking advantage of technology isnt unique to ovation. the ovation company of yore was known for being at the forefront of guitar technology. with regard to 80's cold war mentality, and never talking to anyone under 20 i hope that wasn't directed at me. i live in a third world country and work within and around a corrupt system to help the less fortunate. most of those are children. two have severe hearing problems, and i count my blessings that i can hear the difference between guitars that they never will. i play on stage with all ages from 11 to 80 and personally tutor kids in english. another band i am in buys literally tons of food for people who "slip through the social cracks". i make no money whatsoever for my charitable efforts. i own a foreign car and a ford truck (made in canada) and countless foreign products INCLUDING A FEW FOREIGN MADE OVATIONS. please don't take my opinions regarding what i like from ovation and my personal view of their business model as an archie bunker attitude. i am far from that. and we all grow old. hopefully we can make a difference while doing it and pass on some of what we have and what we have learned while as well. several years ago i was at the home of a well known 8th generation weaver in oaxaca. she was in her 70's weaving alone in her courtyard. i asked her how she did it all alone. she replied that machines in a local factory were producing several blankets a day that took her weeks to make by hand and they copied the traditional designs she wove. i asked her about her daughters, and with a tear in her eye she said they had all gone to the city to seek their fortune. the chain had been broken and without someone to pass her skills on to the legacy of generations was being replaced by production. she died a couple of years ago. and with her we all died a little. | ||
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| Legend-LX-Fan |
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Joined: November 2002 Posts: 1196 Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | My point on the cutaway had nothing to do with sound. My point was that if you buy an Ovation, you HAVE to get a cutaway. Why is this? Can't we have an option? | ||
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| Paul Templeman |
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Joined: February 2002 Posts: 5750 Location: Scotland | I'd guess it's down to consumer demand & fashion. Cutaway acoustics & electros seem to be more popular than non-cutaways. I find it weird that of all the people I know who own cutaway acoustics most of them only get past the third fret if they're using a capo. I think it's sad that the only non-cut deepbowl in the current line is a Celeb, but if the demand isn't there why bother producing them? | ||
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| cliff |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 14842 Location: NJ | Russ; VERY well (and eloquently) put Amigo! I think there is a perceived sense of "polarization" with some of us, when that is not neccesarily the case. I for one, am NOT opposed to Ovation developing new products/lines to cater to the needs of a newer/younger audience. With all sincerity, I hope the MOB is a HUGE success and it makes them boatloads of money! My opinions were based on two criteria: Looks - I thought that the guitar was WAY cool looking (with the exception of the Tagament headstock)! Value - Would I buy one? Hell, YES!! I think it's a really cool guitar (and I have just the sunglasses to go with it)! Would I pay $700+ for it? Hell, NO!! I just honestly don't feel that a trick, automated paintjob warrants that pricetag for an import guitar. Sound/feel would also enter into it, and though I've never played one, I have played a Tangent - not impressed. My views aren't based on any ArchieBunker-isms, either. I'll be 47(ow!) years old next month. I've got a 17-year old daughter with boyfriend who just turned 21 (there goes yet ANOTHER grey hair!). She and I (AND He and I) get along quite well because we share a good amount of "common ground". Music being one of the biggest. When I was playing in my last band, we could switch from The Hollies to Creed to Ray Orbison to Alice In Chains to Beatles to 3 Doors Down without blinking an eye. My daughter even used to call me up at work and hold the phone up to the radio with a "this'd be a good song for the band" song. Whenever we'd play at a venue that she could get into, we always did the "My Father's NOT in an Oldies Band!" set. I try to keep abreast (openmindedly) with current trends in order to maintain a finger on her pulse. (Mothers aren't the only ones with umbilical cords.) My job also requires that I keep current with ongoing trends in fashion, technology, colors, materials, and techniques in order to keep the looks of various shows/exhibits contemporary. Mixed with that, I have a inane penchant (and respect) for quality and craftsmanship. I have mastered the techniques of wide-format digital imaging while maintaining my long-held skills in the lost art of hand lettering with a brush. My feelings are that (in most instances) the import Ovations are fine instruments for the money and that I'm more than happy that Ovation is making money with them. It just seems to me that their not exerting the effort promoting/marketing the instruments that put them on the map to begin with. What's gonna happen in a few years if (as someone alluded to earlier) "the Corporation" decides that it would be more cost effective to send ALL of Ovation's lines overseas for production? I share Russ's view that their are just TOO many models "lumped" under the Ovation name. Adamas started out as an Ovation model and then diverged to "Adamas (by Ovation)" as did Applause. The same should be done (IMHO) with the import line - "Celebrity (or Tangent) by Ovation" and let the Connecticut-built line(s) stand on their own. There's going to be a point (and it's fast approaching) that less-than-savvy consumers are going to equate the Ovation name strictly with the plethora of import guitars on the racks (or mail order pages) in front of them. Innovation is what made the company what it is, and I'd be happy as hell to see a kid on the beach with an MOB. I'd be happier to see a Custom Legend at the next OzzFest. | ||
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| musicamex |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 873 Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | thanks cliff, the check is in the mail buddy. polarization or not ----mi casa tu casa to my ovation amigos. today is broiled dorado followed by a charity benefit afternoon party with one of the three bands i am involved with (bubba and the bottom feeders) and a movie with free popcorn at philos. i respect all of your opinions regarding what we are all on this site for; sharing what we feel and know about ovations, old and new. it isn't cut and dried like algebra. (thank god). | ||
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| cms-man |
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Joined: October 2002 Posts: 170 Location: The Shop | WOW!I didnt realize what a response this would have.I agree with all of you on most of your fellings.I have one hypothetical question to put out there for all.What if Ovation USA was to build a slot head Adamas1 in a deep bowl with all the tech. stuff that we have?How many would buy it?Maybe alot of you?How many of you would pay 3 to say maybe 4 THOUSAND for it? People,guitars aren't cheap to build anymore.Wood is extremly hard to find these days.Skilled workers are even harder.My point thru this is that we have to build what people will buy and right now nobody wants to spend big money to buy a very excellent guitar.Now i still dont know where all th us made guitars are going,overseas maybe.Maybe we get theirs and they get ours!Iam just glad to see that all of you are very passionate about the guitars that we work very hard to build. Oh and by the way you STILL can get a deep bowl non cutaway:-) | ||
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| moody, p.i. |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 15678 Location: SoCal | Put up or shut up, huh? Interesting proposition. People are spending $3-5K for high end guitars when they perceive the quality and value is there. Taylor, Martin, Olson, and others are proving that every day. But it is an interesting propostion. | ||
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| cliff |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 14842 Location: NJ | "...What if Ovation USA was to build a slot head Adamas1 in a deep bowl with all the tech. stuff that we have? How many would buy it?...." I wouldn't. But that's because I already have a Slothead :p I'd probably consider it if it were a 12-string because that will be my next major guitar investment. | ||
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| Paul Templeman |
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Joined: February 2002 Posts: 5750 Location: Scotland | If there was an slot-head reissue for that kind of money I'd have bought one rather than my custom order. And I know this may be sacrilage to some but I'd need a cutaway version! | ||
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| Standingovation |
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Joined: June 2002 Posts: 6202 Location: Phoenix AZ | Cutaway, schmutaway. Ooops, didn't want to start that discussion again. Let's just say we all have our own opinions. But a real interesting thing is what cms-man said earlier. I currently have 20+ ovations in my possession and over the years I would guess 35 or so have some and gone through my front door. But exactly how many do you think I bought new? THREE! I consider myself an avid ovation fan and supporter, but when you think about it, how much revenue has ovation made off of me? So I can rant and rave about how the company should do this or do that to satisfy what I perceive re ne wants of people like me (people on this board). But, guess what -we collectively don't amount to squat on ovations P&L sheet. Sorry, but that's the facts. Ovation lives and dies by the thousands and thousands of people who buy celebritys from catalogs store, on-line, or in those mass market music stores that we all bash so much. We should all be grateful that if we are willing to put our money where our hearts are, ovation will custom build a guitar for us - just like Paul did. Maybe a bad analogy, but General Motors does not stay in bueiness by sell Corvettes - it's the Chevy pickups and Pontiac Grand AMs that pay the bills. Dave | ||
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| stonebobbo |
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Joined: August 2002 Posts: 8307 Location: Tennessee | The ONLY way in the world I would ever spend $4000 on an Adamas would be if it came with the Tangent headstock. :D Seriously, I think Ovation would sell a hell of a lot more than they think ... I sort of made this point in an earlier rant. A lot of the people who are currently spending well over $3K on Taylor and Martins would fork over the money for an Adamas I, mostly because a lot of those buyers have the money and are spending on what they PERCEIVE as a quality instrument (which is totally driven by price), but one that also either a) has exceptional sound quality (a given for the Adamas) or b) it's something that they lusted for when they were younger and only now have the bucks to get one. Today's high end buyers see the new top line Ovations with a street price of (well) under $1500. Compare that with the Taylors, Martins, Gibson, Santa Cruz, etc which are all $3500 and up. (I purposely ignore the low end models as I similarly excluded Celebrities and, forgive me, Balladeers). The buyers will simply not perceive the same level as quality ... how can something be as good if it's only 1/3 the price? I know we can all cite examples to the contrary, but the consumer mind is a very strange beast. So a $4000 Adamas (made with all the same care and materials as the original) would be a real success ... I would bet that Ovation wouldn't be able to keep up with the demand (another assumtion being a relatively low production volume given the handcrafting aspect). A relevant example ... the Rickenbacker 360V64/12 was built for 10+ years and priced at $1900 (a couple of hundred bucks over the modern version of the 360). You could count on finding one readily available and the used market was soft. Then Ric killed the line, reintroduced the exact same model named 360C63/12 with a list price of $3200. They are backordered, people are flocking to the guitar, and used 360V64 models are often fetching original list price on eBay. I would personally figure out a way to buy one ... even if it means selling off one or two other treasured guitars. However, I would personally prefer the carved headstock instead of the slothead, and a non-cutaway (I rarely play acoustic guitar much beyond the 12th fret. The marketing people need to get going on this (and maybe already are if rumors are correct). But they need to exhibit brass cojones and price it at a big number, even if it means breaking the margin model. The rest of the line is already a great value, and the sales of the USA models will also go up when the market realizes this simply because of the $4000 high end model. The final piece to the puzzle will be (as someone else suggested) branding the Celebrity line as such (by Ovation). | ||
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| Beal |
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Joined: January 2002 Posts: 14127 Location: 6 String Ranch | All interesting issues. Could the company profitable make a $4000 list price guitar? Could the company sell this same guitar? I made this suggestion before and will make it again. On your upcoming trip to mecca request a round table discussion with the management. Make sure you have the Bloomfield big guys there (otherwise you're all just singing to the choir) Make sure they hear you. Don't get dazzled and distracted by a softshoe routine should it come to that. (Excellent point there Mr Ovation fan, thanks for raising it. We'll look into that......)Make sure they hear you well. Good Luck. | ||
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| ceres |
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Joined: October 2002 Posts: 56 Location: Alabama | Dave; My Chevy Pick Up is NOT a Celebrity, Definatly a LEGEND. :p | ||
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| Standingovation |
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Joined: June 2002 Posts: 6202 Location: Phoenix AZ | I knew I'd take some flack over the general motors analogy. Let's try this - Porsche is now offering a Sport Utility Vehicle. Why? Because they would go out of business if they continued to only sell sports cars to such a limited market. | ||
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