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| Forums Archive -> The Vault: 2002-2003 | Message format | |
Paul Templeman |
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Joined: February 2002 Posts: 5750 Location: Scotland | "send to the classroom and educatable child. i.e. a child that is prepared, fed, has supplies, is well rested, has assignments completed and you will see a child that learns in almost ANY situation. Unfortunately we have bred a culture of individuals who not only hate their teachers but now are going to take it out on the teachers of their kids without even suspecting that their own child may be at fault." Now we're getting to the the root of at least some of the problem. I get sick & tired of kids (actually, they're damn near adults) in further education who can't turn up to class with a fucking pen, never mind a positive attitude. And in the veiw of the establishment it's the fault of the teacher for not "motivating effectively" | ||
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| moody, p.i. |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 15664 Location: SoCal | Al wrote: I took mace, pepper spray, hammer, bullets, knives, razor knives, clubs, sticks with nails, brass knuckles etc off of kids I taught. TELL ME THE LAST TIME YOU HAD TO DO THAT TO ONE OF YOUR CO WORKERS. Al, I'm the wrong person for anybody to be asking that question. | ||
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| alpep |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10582 Location: NJ | Paul But that is in your job description isn't it??????? It was not in mine but all in a days work. al ps $300 a day plus expenses looks good right now | ||
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| amstphd |
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Joined: January 2003 Posts: 146 Location: Germantown, MD | It's interesting to me that all of us on this board play guitar with more or less talent and skill, but I suspect that only the few who have training as luthiers would presume to tell a luthier how to build a guitar. We'd say that we weren't qualified. On the other hand, everybody who has ever sat in a classroom as a student seems to feel qualified to tell teachers how to do their jobs. Here's a situation that suburban school teachers face several times a year. I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts on it. Imagine yourself to be the teacher. Parents take their kids out of class for a week or more for a family vacation; this is an excused absence because the parents notified the school in advance. As teacher, you sent homework packets in hope that the students wouldn't fall too far behind, but the homework isn't returned. At the end of the week, the student has missed a week of instruction and has only learned that having a good time on vacation is more important than going to school. (The students' return may be a bit disruptive because classmates want to know and the students have to tell about the vacation.) The week that the students missed was about three percent of the year's instruction, and that's enough to cause a marginal student's grade to slip down in this case. The parents, who "only want what's best for their child," complain to the principal what you're unjustly penalizing their student for an excused absence. The principal, who was appointed based on a recommendation from a parents committee and without input from teachers, is inclined to take the parents' side. If you tell the parents that their vacation was ill-timed or refuse to raise the grade, you may be disciplined for insubordination. While the principal may not be able to fire you, she can require you to go through a year-long out-of-cycle performance review, which could result in your termination. The principal also mentions that she's concerned that the school is very close to being designated a "failing school" if the students don't score well on the upcoming standardized tests, and a few students like this one could make the difference. She hopes you'll do what's necessary to get this student caught up. Bailing out is not an option; you love your job most of the time. How do you deal with this situation? Would the presence or absence of a strong union to support you make a difference in your response? Keep in mind that this is not hypothetical. Peace, John PS. I'm not going to grade the responses; I'm just curious. | ||
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| Paul Templeman |
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Joined: February 2002 Posts: 5750 Location: Scotland | John, great post. Unfortunately bailing out is an option, often the only one left. The college I work at is being re-inspected this year after management achieved an unsatisfactory report a couple of years ago. I'm considering not even bailing in when the new term starts in a few weeks. | ||
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| Mr. Ovation |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7222 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | My overall view is that there are good teachers, and there are good schools, and it's RARE unfortunately when they are both in the same place. Unions can be excellent, but I don't think they took into account how low people will go and as stated many hide behind the "nanner nanner you can't fire me" clause. I am disgusted with the education system in this country, and glad I don't have to put any kids through it, although I was a "parent" for several years. The below events happened over many years, some have been corrected, some just got worse. - My Highschool lost its accreditation. - Children of families moving to Germany were held back when they arrived there, because the German schools were about 1 year ahead of ours. - Parents have to supply paper, paper towels, toilet paper and such on the first day of school. (what the hell are taxes for) - My cousin is a teacher. One day in the EARLY 80's when kneeling down to ask the 12 year old girl to kindly NOT wear a seethrough dress to school he noticed the Colt 45 (the gun, not the beer) in the belt of the 12 year old boy sitting in the next chair. - In the mid 80's CALIFORNIA HAD A VOTE TO DECIDE WHAT LANGUAGE SHOULD BE TAUGHT AS THE PRIMARY LANGUAGE OF THE STATE!!!!!!!!! - In Hawaii public schools the teachers must speak pigeon english. (I don't know if that's the real name for the Hawaii slang language.) I feel a rant coming on, so I will stop. We may have one of the best systems, but it's far from perfect... very far. It's fine to say "parents should take responsibility" but in many cases there aren't any parents. Either in reality, or they just aren't there. In the DC area, there are very few households that can survive on one income. I believe the DC area has the largest per-cap number of Nannys, and oh-pairs I have met some great teachers over the years. But also have seen some terrible ones. I have no answers, but one opinion. If there is a parent or parents, they should be held accountable for the acts of their children. PERIOD!!! The Parents of the kids who shot up Columbine and elsewhere should be in Jail. No trial. The only thing that need to be proven is that the kids did "it" whatever the crime is, and they are the parents. It used to be fun when "Pistol Pete" our town constable came to school. It was like a big show and tell day. Now schools look like prisons complete with armed guards roaming the halls. Again, I'm glad I don't have kids. | ||
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| Nils |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 1380 Location: Central Oregon | First of all, welcome aboard Glockaxis! This is a very interesting place that covers a lot of ground besides Ovation guitars! John, I think you already know what you have to do. It might not be what you'd like to do, but you know what is right & what is wrong. If that kid's parents *really* wanted what was "best" for the kid, they wouldn't take him/her out of school for a week knowing said kid was already barely getting by. Period. If they didn't know the kid was barely getting by they're crappy parents. Period. Personally, if I found myself in your situation I'd point those facts out & whatever happens, happens. I don't have a degree in anything, but in the last 55 years I've found that callin' 'em like I see 'em is the only way I can get through life & look at myself in the mirror every day. If the results of doing what is right are something you can't be comfortable with, go do something else- like Miles suggested. A crappy frustrating job is a crappy frustrating job, regardless of what the job itself is. Life is too short, don't waste a third of it doing something that doesn't make you happy. Nils (btw, it rimes with Miles, I have no real idea why there's no *e*) :) | ||
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| alpep |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10582 Location: NJ | JOhn to answer your question. There was a time when approved leaves for students were only due to hardship or educational purposes. Now parents will pull their kids out of school because they got a good hotel rate in disneyland/world/six flags etc etc etc. This to me is unacceptable but unfortunately a reality. I taught in a district where the parents would go back and forth from Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, Nicaragua etc with such frequency that you would have thought they were working at Microsoft and not welfare recipients. The reasoning behind these sojourns was always a sick relative or family problem etc but the kids ultimately suffered. Usually when they went back to the native country they did not attend school and when back in the states there were at the beginning again. The problem you outlined is not exclusive to the suburbs. | ||
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| Nils |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 1380 Location: Central Oregon | Originally posted by alpep: JOhn to answer your question. There was a time when approved leaves for students were only due to hardship or educational purposes. Now parents will pull their kids out of school because they got a good hotel rate in disneyland/world/six flags etc etc etc. This to me is unacceptable but unfortunately a reality. I taught in a district where the parents would go back and forth from Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, Nicaragua etc with such frequency that you would have thought they were working at Microsoft and not welfare recipients. The reasoning behind these sojourns was always a sick relative or family problem etc but the kids ultimately suffered. Usually when they went back to the native country they did not attend school and when back in the states there were at the beginning again. The problem you outlined is not exclusive to the suburbs. And from what I've been hearing you might have to send 'em right on through high school with a diploma without being able to read, because otherwise it might hurt their self esteem. Imo, the root of our problem is we have waaay too many lawyers without enough honest work, therefore they have to keep coming up with more & more outrageous things to squabble about. F'rinstance- Some kid takes a gun to school & shoots people- Sue the school! Sue the City! Sue the gunmaker! Sue the guy that poured the cement that the bullet bounced off of! But Hells Bells don't tell the parents it's they're fault! All this sort of bullshit does is suck money out of the pockets of honest people who actually create, build, fix, invent or produce *something, anything!* that is useful to society, be it through more taxes, higher insurance premiums, or whatever. I'm not saying we need zero lawyers, & I'm not saying there are zero lawyers doing something useful, I'm just saying we have many (many, many) more than are remotely necessary in a reasonable society, that's why we no longer have one. Short story: I have a friend that is trying to get into the electricians union as an apprentice. He can work as a helper, but he can't get in as an apprentice until some other apprentice quits or an electrician retires, or somebody croaks. But! We pump lawyers into the system as fast as they can pass the bar exam. It's no wonder this country is in such a mess. I think it would be a wonderful idea to freeze the number of lawyers right now & not allow any more until, say, three fourths of 'em die. Then freeze it at that number & try it for ten years. What have we got to lose? Unfortunately that will never happen, because a lot of the leftover lawyers became politicians. Gee, that felt good! Nils P.S. If I offended any lawyers I promise to worry about it in "Micro Give-a-Shits". | ||
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| alpep |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10582 Location: NJ | Funny my first choice of profession was lawyer, Because I wanted to HELP people. I did not get into an accredited law school because of low test scores and decided that as a teacher I could help way more people at once than as a lawyer. I was wrong. They are called public schools for a reason. You support the "status quo" of the neighborhood, city, state, region, country, politicians, etc. Although creativity and spontaneity are alledged teaching tools, They are not allowed in a situation where the goal is to produce the same "type" of person in a cookie cutter fashion. The honors program in my inner city school was a joke. It was equivalent to the standard program in suburban schools. I know of teachers that were fired because they refused to pass kids that could not do the minimum of the subject material. Unfortunately, if every teacher failed who they should there would be a huge amount of kids with no piece of paper that says they graduated. The dumbing down of society has started long ago. I can tell you stories that will make you puke. I have seen many good teachers (and hacks like myself) leave the profession because they could no longer take the abuse. Are lawyers the problem? Well they are part of the problem, along with the automatic cash registers that make it unnecessary for people to know math and automated phone systems that never allow you to speak to a live person and many other modern conveniences that provide "comfort" but in reality utilize less of the human element. Go into a store during a computer glitz and watch how people will not even know how to complete a transaction without the aid of technology. Maybe technology is our true enemy and we are not smart enough to identify it. | ||
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| Mr. Ovation |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7222 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I know someone who graduated from high school in prestigeous Fairfax Virgina. Average household income in Fairfax (this was about 6 years ago) was 65K. The only low income housing in the area was mandated by the state (every builder has to build x % low income housing.). I am just trying to paint the picture of this upscale town, considered a 'burb or D.C., where this gentleman graduated high school and could not read. He was not alone. When I met him (in his late 20's) he was attending night school with several others high school graduates from the area who could not read. For those that are not in tune with the local geography, this is OUR NATIONS CAPITAL. You don't even want to know about the schools actually located in the District. | ||
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| amstphd |
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Joined: January 2003 Posts: 146 Location: Germantown, MD | Miles, I live in Fairfax County and teach in Montgomery County, Maryland, just across the Potomac, which has very similar demographics and schools. The Fairfax County system overall is highly regarded and its students who take the SAT have average scores that are consistently above the national average. Still, I'm not surprised to know that good results aren't universal. Should your friend have been allowed to graduate without being able to read? Hell no. Does the fact that he was indicate that the entire system is a failure? Probably not. Peace, John | ||
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| Nils |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 1380 Location: Central Oregon | "Unfortunately, if every teacher failed who they should there would be a huge amount of kids with no piece of paper that says they graduated." And that is EXACTLY how it SHOULD be! Why should some dumbass lazy dipshit that can't even read be given a high school diploma?? Just give me ONE good reason! And don't try to tell me it's because it would hurt their poor little ego's if they flunked out. It SHOULD hurt their damned egos! At one time a high school diploma meant a person had at least enough tenacity & pluck to stick with something long enough to learn the basic things you need to know to function in our society. An employer could see by their diploma that an applicant had at least something on the ball. Now it doesn't mean a GOD DAMNED THING! That, imo, is one reason why we have kids with a BS (which is becoming a more appropriate description of their "education" all the time) that are flipping burgers. (Although they might still be too ignorant to make change.) Giving a diploma to an illiterate is like paying somebody that doesn't do the work they're paid to do & that is bullshit! I don't care how anybody tries to justify it. Nils | ||
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| alpep |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10582 Location: NJ | Nils Once again we are caught in the educational catch 22. kid does not learn. kid scores low on standardized test. teacher fails kid. principal does not want large amounts of failures it looks bad for him/her. Principal pressures teacher into changing grades or just changes them by pressuring the guidance department to do it. can;t have the school looking bad or the district. believe me I have seen this happen and it happens more often then you think. The teachers are not always the bad guys. I have seen people quit rather than change grades. So what happens you have to feed your family and pay your bills, the administration changes your grades and you can do nothing about it. No one will listen to you. Make teachers more accountable???? give me a break. Let's start with making superintendents, school boards, supervisors and prinicpals accountable and let's not penalize them for having dumb kids in their schools. The ONLY thing that works folks is lower class sizes. You can deal with 3 idiots in a class if there are only 15 in a class room Most of the classes I saw in my tenure as a teacher had 30-40. This is stupid. Kids that need the special care and attention don't get it. Why? who the hell wants to work in the inner city and risk your life car and stuff for miserable pay and no accolades. Only idiots like me. | ||
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| Mr. Ovation |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7222 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | There are some good teachers out there. I feel sorry for them, but I know they are there. I think a HUGE part of problems in society today is this cloud of "political correctness." There is no one answer to fix the edjamukaytion system of this county. In fact, in some places, it just isn't broken. Learning anything like to play an instrument requires certain elements. A willing student, a competent teacher (could even be books or a video... but someone wrote it), proper materials and practice. In the world of education and children all of those elements don't always exist, and it can be different from child to child in the same classroom. 1. Willing student. I think most people are willing to learn, just have to speak the right language. This element can not stand alone. You still need a teacher, materials, and practice. 2. Materials. Again, all the computers, pens, pencils, and PDA's won't teach a student. 3. Teacher. I think most teachers are probably at least compitent. Many are great, but without a willing student, who has the right materials, and one can practice what they learn... well you see where this is going... 4. Practice. I think this is the most IMPORTANT part of learning ANYTHING. In education or "school" practice for some reason is seen as something that should take place in the school. If you take guitar lessons, you are expected to practice AT HOME and show up the next week prepared. But school doesn't seem to work like that in many cases. This is where THE PARENTS are to be held responsible. I think with the emphasis on career that there is, many parents today fall short of their responsibility and THAT is the problem with our education system, and a lot of society. Speaking of "emphasis on career" I think that too is OVER emphasized in our society and in schools. Although this is the land of oportunity, not EVERY kid will go to college. Not EVERY kid needs to or wants to. I think at some level, when a child realizes that they will not go to college, most likely because of financial reasons and they are a solid "C" student... where is the motivation to succeed. For those that do go to college, the "career path" is such a part of life that it follows them forward. Finally, when they have kids, they are caught off-guard, because "career planning" can no longer be on the fast-track. But wait... with money you can BUY parents for your kids. It truly is a sad world we live in. | ||
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| Bailey |
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Joined: May 2002 Posts: 3005 Location: Las Cruces, NM | All Right I started this great rant, and I now must intrject my opinion that led to the Poway recall. Schools were initially formed to do what parents, who were busy farming, ranching, running stores, etc, were to busy to educate their children. So the schoolmarm or the guy with a little ability was hired and given a building and a few supplies to teach the children the abilities that they might need to survive in soceity. This was never meant to give that teacher authority to teach a philosophy that differed from the community that hired him/her. The development of the idea that the educational beauracracy is more able than the parents in deciding what is proper for the education of our children is what has ruined our schools. Parents, even if they are distracted, Know what is right for their children. | ||
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| alpep |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10582 Location: NJ | Originally posted by Bailey: All Right The development of the idea that the educational beauracracy is more able than the parents in deciding what is proper for the education of our children is what has ruined our schools. Parents, even if they are distracted, Know what is right for their children. Does that include crack mothers, prostititutes, drug dealers, alcoholics, etc? I in no way want to diminish the role of the parent but your argument is only applicable when there is responsibility present. I taught many kids that were raised by aunts, grandparents etc. Their parents were too busy getting high and having fun to care about their kids. Looks like we have come to an interesing point here. The problem with the educational system is that their is no universally applicable fix. I can tell you with a view from the trenches that there is no time to teach "philosophy" there is a strict curriculum that must be followed. Myself, and others in the field had problems with how the curriculum was presented. As a professional we wanted the ability to determine what ways were best suited to teach the group of students in front of us. Each group dynamic is different and what works for one group may not work for another. Yet school boards want to dictate education instruction methods that may or may not be applicable to the needs of the individual classroom. Case in point, One of my main points of contention was using an educational model that was never tested with middle school students and was totally un applicable to second language learners. I protested, I stated my points, the administration agreed, but still required me to use this model because it was "district approved". What a waste of my time, student time and taxpayer cash. Why is it we are so quick to tell the teacher a trained professional how to do their job, when we would not think of it for most other profession? What makes our society want to bash the person that we charge with the well being and education of our youth as incompetent? It is amazing how in many other cultures the teacher is held in high regard, in our the teacher is just another public servant. So if that is your view, expect to get exactly that, just another public servant. | ||
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| Mr. Ovation |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7222 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Al, I totally agree with you. The "fix" becomes even more complicated when there aren't "parents" in the picture for whatever reason. I will add that many of the children being raised by an "au pair" or nanny are at the same disadvantage as the children of prostitutes and drug dealers and such being raised by aunts and grandparetns. They might just live in a better house. I contend that the erosion of our great society has led to many more kids without parents, and there are plenty of "systems" in place that just perpetuate this. I really don't think there is anything fundementally wrong with most of what people refer to as the "education system." There is a deeper problem. This may pull the thread in a different direction, but it is a slightly more cut'n dry analogy for my point. The line "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is something I believe in. I don't think making more laws, adding regulations etc etc etc is going to stop people from wanting to kill people. With this same philosophy, more rules and regulations, and judging teachers and closing schools, and more taxes, and vouchers, are not going to instill the fact that "PARENTS" start the ball rolling. Those "crack dealers, prostitutes etc" all had parents, or maybe those parents were just as bad, but somewhere in their history, was a parent that failed. The successful couple that nonchalantly decides to have children and immediatly starts interviewing people to raise that child, had parents that failed. I feel very very lucky. I hated my parents and later in life I learned they are just people that had no buisness having children, but society felt different in those days (and today too I guess), probably making them feel broken because they didn't have kids at an earlier age than they did. I made some choices out of blind stupidity, and had some good outside influences, so I guess I turned out ok. Not every kid is not that lucky. In my image of a better world, I would not have been born and I realize that. But too many kids ARE born, and aren't as lucky as I was to make choices that dropped me into the right places at the right time. Growing up should be a little more guided, and our society is lacking there. | ||
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| Nils |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 1380 Location: Central Oregon | I agree Al, there is a "catch 22" in education. I am intelligent enough to see that there is a problem, unfortuntely I am not capable of coming up with a solution. Btw, I don't blame teachers, with the exception of one old bat that caused me to throw in the towel during my second year at the U. of Alaska. Here's a little C&P from Bill Gates: -------------------------------------------------- BILL GATES' SPEECH TO MT. WHITNEY HIGH SCHOOL in Visalia, California. Love him or hate him, he sure hits the nail on the head with this! To anyone with kids of any age, here's some advice. Bill Gates recently gave a speech at a High School about 11 things they did not and will not learn in school. He talked about how feel-good, politically correct teachings created a generation of kids with no concept of reality and how this concept set them up for failure in the real world. Rule 1: Life is not fair - - get used to it! Rule 2: The world won't care about your self-esteem. The world will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel good about yourself. Rule 3: You will NOT make $60,000 a year right out of high school. You won't be a vice-president with a car phone until you earn both. Rule 4: If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a boss. Rule 5: Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your Grandparents had a different word for burger flipping -- they called it opportunity. Rule 6: If you mess up, it's not your parents' fault, so don't whine about your mistakes, learn from them. Rule 7: Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as they are now. They got that way from paying your bills, cleaning your clothes and listening to you talk about how cool you thought you were. So before you save the rain forest from the parasites of your parent's generation, try delousing the closet in your own room. Rule 8: Your school may have done away with winners and losers, but life HAS NOT. In some schools they have abolished failing grades and they'll give you as MANY TIMES as you want to get the right answer. This doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life. Rule 9: Life is not divided into semesters. You don't get summers off and very few employers are interested in helping you FIND YOURSELF. Do that on your own time. Rule 10: Television is NOT real life. In real life people actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs. Rule 11: Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for one. -------------------------------------------------- | ||
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| Mr. Ovation |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7222 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | On AOL there is a section dedicated to schools. It has ratings, and input from principles and parents etc... Very useful tool if you have kids, but at the very least it's interesting. Here is a parents comment about an Elementary school in Hawaii. "Class sizes average 33 students for grades 4 and 5 and 6. Some teachers need to retire their heart is not there. A new principal will be arriving for the new school term hopefully this will bring some positive change and new teachers. If you expect any quality sports to be taught to your child if any,dream on" I'm not sure if folks outside of AOL can see this.. GreatSchools.Net | ||
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| Glockaxis |
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Joined: August 2003 Posts: 27 Location: Palm Desert, CA | Hello all, (ALPEP--Question for you at the end) Just an update to this post that I started: I went yesterday and picked up the 2003 black Custom Legend that the store ordered to replace the 2000 CL floor model they let me take home (1 hr to get there and 1 back). It is indeed beautiful and I saw the guy pull it out from the cardboard box since it came in yesterday afternoon. They wanted a little over cost for the old one and I didn't bite since I thought it was going to be lower. The main differences I noticed was the more plush case w/ the name "Ovation" on the fur; the guitar's Op 50 preamp system; and a different texture where the guitar rests on your leg. While I was waiting I also saw and played an Adamas carbon fibre top guitar for 1400 (MSRP 2200) that I also wanted but Maybe at the end of the school year------- By the way I am currently a teacher and have been for the past 6 years. I've enjoyed reading the comments given by all and agree with the general consensus about education. My previous years were done in a private middle school and now I am jumping to public high school (can't wait for the culture shock!!!) There are a lot of pros and cons to each but I feel more valued at the public schools so far despite problems. I did do some teaching at an inner city high school in San Diego where I was in the line of fire of some gun-weilding student but survived so I have some idea of what I'm getting myself into. ALPEP, If things don't work out could I get a job at your store? Thanks | ||
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| alpep |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10582 Location: NJ | it would be one hellava commute | ||
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| Tony Calman |
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Joined: August 2003 Posts: 4619 Location: SoCal | Dom, Interesting-the 2000 CL may have had more than broken knobs wrong with it...the 2000 CL 12 that I just bought on eBay came with the 9158 case and OP50 pre-amp. I know that this is a 2000 based on serial number. Maybe the floor model was not a yr 2000 since I assume the 6-string and 12-string CL would have had the same model case and pre-amp. | ||
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| Nils |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 1380 Location: Central Oregon | Since this thread has wandered all over the place anyway, here's an update on lawyers "helping" people from todays "News of the Weird". -------------------------------------------------- The Latest Results from America's preeminent Lawyer Enrichment Program (class-action lawsuits): (1) In a $350 million settlement between AT&T and customers overcharged on telephone leases, lawyers get $84 million, and customers get back $15-20 each (December). (2) In a recent settlement between Sears and customers with improperly-done wheel balancing, lawyers get $2.45 million, and customers get $2.50 a tire. (3) In a $3.7 million settlement between televangelist Jim Bakker's Praise The Lord Ministries and 165,000 defrauded Christians, lawyers get $2.5 million, and each victim gets $6.54 (July). (4) In a settlement of price-fixing charges against cosmetics manufacturers and retailers, lawyers get $24 million, and each customer gets a free cosmetic (July). -------------------------------------------------- Sorry, I couldn't "help" (harhar) myself. This has been a fun & informative thread. :) Nils | ||
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| Bailey |
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Joined: May 2002 Posts: 3005 Location: Las Cruces, NM | And a Texas high muckety muck pled guilty to frauduantly trying to divert millions of tobacco settlement money to his favorite law firm. Maybe a few trips out of town dressed in tar and feathers and waving to the crowd because of the honor would do a lot to reform the legal establishment, the bar association sure won't rein them in. If the victims of those sort of Class action suits could confront the lawyers that "helped" them, with horse whips and tar and feathers, true reform would result. I am sorry to offend any one by praising these lawers so highly. (did I find an exception to the rule "i before e except after c, in the word rein, or did I mispell it?) Bailey (hang the lawyer, not the client and you will enable the reduction of crime on a BIG scale) | ||
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