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| Regarding the post about guitar set up. I would like for you to define "INTONATION" in your own words........ Randy |
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Posts: 1225
Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | Intonation desribes the guitar's ability to play in tune all the way up the neck. If a guitar does not have good intonation, notes played up the neck become more sharp or flat as you go up the neck. I have heard that a good test is to play each string open and then play the 12th fret harmonic. The two notes should be identical if you have good intonation. |
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Location: Midland, MI | Hey, I thought that was compensation, not intonation!
just kidding...
:D |
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Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan | I asked about fixed position bridges a while ago and am still a little foggy on it. I wondered just what decided if the bridge was straight, at an angle, or staggered. I would seem that once it is figured out for a certain model, it would just be a matter of repeatablity in production. Frets in the right place, bridge in the right place and there you have it.
My Breadwinner is screw adjustable at the bridge for each string which would make it seem that there is a need to make adjustments. Is there a wider level of intonation tolerance on a acoustic because of a non-adjustable saddle? |
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Location: Scotland | Acoustic guitar intonation is approximate at best. The saddle is set to reasonably compensate for the different mass and tension of each string but that's as good as it gets because there are other variables. String guage & action height both affect intonation. On an electric guitar each saddle can be adjusted, but with a fixed sadddle you just have to live with it, or have a compensated saddle made for a specific string-guage & action. The Ovation pickup makes this appproach impractical. Some manufacturers build-in some nut compensation (basically the nut is moved closer to the first fret, which improves intonation in the first few positions) and then theres Buzz Feiten's system, on which the jury is still out. |
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Location: south east Michigan | Thanks for the reply Paul. |
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Posts: 873
Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | good morning. ditto to above answers.
also intonation should be set using a new set of stretched (play blues for 15 min) strings. as a matter of physics you are balancing the the string so that it is the same between the nut and 12th fret and between the 12th fret and saddle. if you were to move the saddle 2" toward the nut, the 12th fret harmonic would no longer be over the 12th fret, but would be half of 2" or 1 inch closer to the nut.
as a set of strings wears the intonation will go off. i bend strings allot in playing, and the little spots rubbed into the strings by the frets will cause the strings to lose intonation. ever notice that before a string breaks it starts to sound out of tune no matter what you do? |
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Posts: 201
Location: Vernon, CT | The next phase would be "detonation" when the whole guitar explodes after a 5 second delay charge is automatically initiated. Better replace those strings asap! Play On! :confused:
John L.
Custom Legend 1779-USA (almost here)
Legend LX
Balladeer LX
Std. Balladeer
Celebrity C026
Tornado (1970)
Takamine 12 String
Martin D16GT
Fender P-Bass (1975)
Fender Strat (1974) |
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Posts: 873
Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | that would be the way i would prefer "adjust" most of my students guitars. (they can be had from beach vendors here for 400 pesos or $37)
Originally posted by John Lawrence:
The next phase would be "detonation" when the whole guitar explodes after a 5 second delay charge is automatically initiated. Better replace those strings asap! Play On! :confused:
John L.
Custom Legend 1779-USA (almost here)
Legend LX
Balladeer LX
Std. Balladeer
Celebrity C026
Tornado (1970)
Takamine 12 String
Martin D16GT
Fender P-Bass (1975)
Fender Strat (1974) |
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Posts: 1900
| Perhaps a 'compensated acoustic/electric saddle' will be the next major inOvation, so to speak...
steve |
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Posts: 873
Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | Originally posted by Steve:
Perhaps a 'compensated acoustic/electric saddle' will be the next major inOvation, so to speak...
steve
the ovation and many other acoustic electric saddles are not straight line saddles like on guitars of the past. they adjust in a general way for certain strings and many guitars using the same saddle. too bad they cant somehow rotate on an axle and be locked to adjust intonation. that in itself could create it's own set of problems. i don't know if there is even an adjustable system out there. |
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Posts: 1900
| hey musicamex, there is probably a way to attach an adjustable bridge and saddle but the cosmetic aspects would be goofy looking...wouldn't surprise me if some acoustic guitar makers considered it but didn't think it was cost effective..
steve |
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Posts: 873
Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | with the piezo setup it gets trickier i think. parker fly and a few other electric solid body guitars use piezo so i guess looking at them closely might hold some answers. most electric solid bodys are really great for the ability to add or subtract corrections with the turn of a screw. |
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Posts: 2487
| My Breadwinner is screw adjustable at the bridge for each string.
Brad this is interesting to me did not know Ovation had any adjustable bridges on thier guitars? How does this look and work exactly? Randy |
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Posts: 873
Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | most electic solid body guitars have adjustable height and movable saddles. on some the ht can be adjusted for each string. others it is right or left. on some you can adjust the break angle. some bridges are floating. i fix all of mine solid so when i break a string in the middle of a song the whole guitar doesn't go out of tune and can finish the song before i say "were going to take a short break".
id be surprised if your rickenbakers arent adjustable. |
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Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan | Northcountry,
Each string rests on a plastic piece that is flat on the bottom. The plastic rests on a flat plate. Parallel to strings, there are spring loaded adjusting screws that allow the individual saddle to move up & down. Or is it back and forth? Anyway...a pic in someones gallery might show more. |
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June 2004
Posts: 271
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, Florida | INTONATION" ah what a subject... I am an engineer by trade and only started playing the guitar a few years ago... When I found out that electric guitars had all the adjustments needed, for killer set ups and proper intonation with adjustable INDIVIDUAL saddles...
AND
that most acoustics (Klein of California, has an adjustable saddle for one) were designed with fixed saddles and told to "live with it, we all do" I was not satisfied, with that answer...
I researched an adjustable, individually, INTONATABLE acoustic bridge... to find what all the fuss was about and am currently in the process of building prototypes as I write this...
Everyone I spoke to said you can't do it... can't use any metal, it will kill the tone... Well I am here to tell you that the only metal necessary is the bolt to adjust the saddles up and down the neck... Everything else is wood or various saddle materials I am experimenting with...
Also heard that Yamaha made an adjustable, intonatable, bridge a while back... but have yet to see one or a good picture of one... Would love to get some feed back from anyone who knows where one is!!!
There are a few other tricks I have learned about intonation, with a non adjustable bridge, in the process... I will make those findings known when I get all my testing, done... a little further down the road.
I have chosen a Celebrity model "O" as my first victim to see how much improvement can be tweaked out of this most, basic, inexpensive, instrument... Granted I invested boo qoo bucks in tools from Stew Mac, but felt the time, energy and money was well spent, as I teach myself this process... By the way one of the coolest tools from Stew Mac is Dan Erlewine's "neck jig"... The action on my el cheapo guitar now rivals most of your upper end guitars from any make...
After the full treatment of making the top of ALL the frets, FLAT... and getting just the right set up and relief... the play ability and action are incredible as I found the factory set up lacking big time...
Now the pressure needed from my fingers is very slight and I no longer fight the neck as I had done when I first started to play...
When I get to the point, where input from luthiers in the field is necessary, I will make an announcement, with a new post...
For now, at this stage, I would prefer not to be in the spotlight, bombarded with requests for samples, etc until I get some more testing done...
That is why I am leaving this post buried in here, for now...
AB |
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Posts: 1900
| hi AB, well, you sound serious; it seems a guitar enthusiast somewhere would have done the research you are considering; if you are going to flatten out (and narrow) the crown on the frets, perhaps titanium fret wire will provide a superior performance and compensate for the acoustic signal loss that is anticipated with the use of individual saddles...
steve |
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Posts: 873
Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | Originally posted by Abendicum:
INTONATION" ah what a subject... I am an engineer by trade and only started playing the guitar a few years ago... When I found out that electric guitars had all the adjustments needed, for killer set ups and proper intonation with adjustable INDIVIDUAL saddles...
AND
that most acoustics (Klein of California, has an adjustable saddle for one) were designed with fixed saddles and told to "live with it, we all do" I was not satisfied, with that answer...
I researched an adjustable, individually, INTONATABLE acoustic bridge... to find what all the fuss was about and am currently in the process of building prototypes as I write this...
Everyone I spoke to said you can't do it... can't use any metal, it will kill the tone... Well I am here to tell you that the only metal necessary is the bolt to adjust the saddles up and down the neck... Everything else is wood or various saddle materials I am experimenting with...
Also heard that Yamaha made an adjustable, intonatable, bridge a while back... but have yet to see one or a good picture of one... Would love to get some feed back from anyone who knows where one is!!!
There are a few other tricks I have learned about intonation, with a non adjustable bridge, in the process... I will make those findings known when I get all my testing, done... a little further down the road.
I have chosen a Celebrity model "O" as my first victim to see how much improvement can be tweaked out of this most, basic, inexpensive, instrument... Granted I invested boo qoo bucks in tools from Stew Mac, but felt the time, energy and money was well spent, as I teach myself this process... By the way one of the coolest tools from Stew Mac is Dan Erlewine's "neck jig"... The action on my el cheapo guitar now rivals most of your upper end guitars from any make...
After the full treatment of making the top of ALL the frets, FLAT... and getting just the right set up and relief... the play ability and action are incredible as I found the factory set up lacking big time...
Now the pressure needed from my fingers is very slight and I no longer fight the neck as I had done when I first started to play...
When I get to the point, where input from luthiers in the field is necessary, I will make an announcement, with a new post...
For now, at this stage, I would prefer not to be in the spotlight, bombarded with requests for samples, etc until I get some more testing done...
That is why I am leaving this post buried in here, for now...
AB
very interesting post. i will look forward to reading how this all works out.
STEVE who handles titanium fretwire? |
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Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | We used to check Ovations intonation. Some guitars even had five of them. Those were the good ones. |
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INTONATION what is it?
