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Location: northern Georgia | I thought that the main reason for bridge plates for guitars was to provide a hard wear surface for the ball end of strings on instruments that use pinned bridges. Early O designs that used X-bracing did not use bridge plates, which sort of makes sense, as Ovation has always used pin-less bridges. Then when Ovation went to the X-braced LX designs, they started using a bridge plate like almost everyone else, even though they still used pin-less bridges. Does anyone recall an Ovation engineer or designer explaining why they used a bridge plate?
The reason I ask is that I am now in the process of rebuilding a 1974 1617, and need to decide how to brace the top. From what I have heard, I prefer X-braced instruments to Ovation A-bracing or VT patterns, but being mainly a classical player, I am used to pin-less bridges and plan to use a pin-less bridge that I made on this old Legend. Adding a bridge plate seems to be unnecessary if it is just holding the balls at the ends of the strings. I suspect a reason might be to reduce the deformation of the top in front and back of he bridge. If so, the question then becomes how far should the bridge patch extend beyond the bridge for this? Would a good alternative be to adopt the diagonal brace design used in early Balladeers and Folklores, instead of now standard Martin X-brace design?
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | Hi Kim,
Yes, you're correct. The main reason for bridge plates is to protect the underside of the top from the ball ends of strings.
I have no idea why Ovation used bridge plates on the LX braces. As you note, they're not really necessary on Ovations.
Personally, I think Ovation has blurred the lines with their brace patterns. The original Balladeers used X-braces because they were competing with the Martin sound. Then, the Adamas/Elites introduced the Quintad brace pattern. The Custom Legend introduced the A-brace pattern. This gave each product line it's own sound.
Somewhere along the way, all of these product lines went to the LX X-brace. The result is that they all sound alike. The only difference is external appearance and appointments. From a production stand-point it's cheaper, but as I say the unique sound of each product line was lost in the process.
I've re-topped quite a few Ovations. Two were early X-braced. A few used A-braces. I also re-topped three guitars using modified Martin pre-war brace patterns. More on this shortly.
To my ears, the X-braced guitars have a typical country sound. Strong bass, good mid-range and sparkling highs. IOW, the Martin guitar sound.
The A-brace guitars are more balanced across the bass, mid and high. It's not surprising since this was the purpose of the A-brace. I was actually disappointed when I bought my first 1719 Custom Legend. I was used to the sound of X-braced guitars and to me, the A-brace sounded dead. I actually sold that guitar because I wasn't playing it. More later.
I also really like the quintad brace pattern because it's got the brightness of the X-brace and the balanced sound of the A-brace. Since this is an Elite pattern, it won't really work on a center-hole guitar like your 1617.
Getting back to the Martin pre-war brace pattern, when I was re-topping my 1619 CL, I had read an article on Stewmac's web site titled, "Banjo Killer? The scoop on forward X bracing for greater guitar volume." It sounded promising, so I decided to buy a set of Stewmac's pre-carved braces and modified them to fit on the Ovation top.
I was completely blown away by the sound of the guitar. It was bright, it was balanced and it was loud, but it also responded to the softest touch. (See: 1619-4 Rebuild...)
I was so impressed I built a 1617 using this brace pattern, but this time I used torrefied Sitka spruce top and braces. Same great sound, but like it was on steroids. I sold that guitar to a guy back east. (Paul Solstys) He is a gigging musician, and totally loved it. He was blown away that I'd managed to put the sound of a Martin D35 into an Ovation guitar body. He said he knows what a D35 sounds like because he's got one. (See: 1978 1617 Legend Rebuild...)
He liked it so much, he commissioned me to build another guitar exactly like the first. He said he was playing the first one so much he was afraid of wearing it out. I built it for him, but modified it to true Martin pre-war specs using torrefied Adirondack spruce top and braces. This guitar sounded even better. (See: Paul Soltys' 1977 1117-4 Legend...)
Around this time I re-topped an 1717 using torrefied Adi spruce in the Ovation A-braces. After I finished it, I found that I liked the A-brace pattern in torrefied wood. (See: 1985 1717 Legend Rebuild...)
Getting back to the bridge plate. I've got an Alvarez PD-100S, which is X-braced. Instead of using maple, as most manufacturers do, Alvarez used rosewood. When I was working on my 1619, I decided to use a rosewood bridge plate. I have no idea whether it helped or not, but when I re-topped the two 1617s for Paul Solstys, I used rosewood bridge plates on these as well. As far as the size of the bridge plate, it should fill the area between the lower legs of the X-braces, but not extend below the bottom of the bridge. If you look at the drawings on the Stewmac page or the photos of the X-braced guitars I've re-topped, you can get a better idea of what I'm describing. Another thing I did on these three guitars was that I didn't tuck the braces. Tucked braces don't help the sound. They actually deaden the sound. Their purpose is to lessen warranty repairs due to popped braces.
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | I forgot to add that I would avoid the Ovation VT brace patterns. In my opinion, and the opinions of others, the VT brace pattern doesn't sound all that great. |
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Location: Katmandu | Perhaps, if they still screw the bridge down to the top (I'm not sure if they still do), they may have decided that adding a bridge plate when using a thinner top provided a little more stability in that area where screws and nuts meet. On the topic of Ovation's A bracing, it produces a most beautiful tone, full of bass and treble with barely any mids, cutting right through every mix. However, since it is a very light bracing for a steel-string guitar and lacking any transverse braces, it comprimises a lot of the top's stability and flatness for superior tone, particularly in the lower bout and the fretboard tongue. Despite that, it still is my favorite Ovation bracing, though, never having tried their X bracing.
Edited by leonardmccoy 2019-11-18 2:17 PM
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Location: northern Georgia | For Dan, thanks for the summary of results of your numerous projects. I saw the same article at the Stew-Mac site, and that layout was the primary one I was considering. The success you had with it gives me a very strong reason to basically go with that. I may leave out the bridge plate altogether though, since it is extra mass at a point of the top that is already pretty rigid, due to the bridge itself. I plan on not using screws or pins to locate the bridge, so the point that Leonard made about the plate being used to protect the top from screws is moot. From what I recall about the original top, the factory used pop rivets to locate the bridge for gluing, but they did not have a hardwood plate under the two rivets. I may possibly put a thin piece of mahogany there to provide a better mounting surface to put a Pick Up The World Model 27 thin-film piezo transducer to act as a quack-buster for the Baggs LB6x bridge pickup that I will be using.
I did think very hard several times about using A-bracing, and info from a couple of Dan's builds provides enough data to duplicate that. However, I prefer the tone of a forward shifted X-brace OM, or a Gibson Advanced Jumbo to the deep body Custom Legends that I have heard.
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | leonardmccoy - 2019-11-18 12:14 PM Perhaps, if they still screw the bridge down to the top (I'm not sure if they still do), they may have decided that adding a bridge plate when using a thinner top provided a little more stability in that area where screws and nuts meet. Thanks for the reminder, Leonard. Yes, Ovation used two machine screws and nuts to secure the bridges on any top that isn't -4. (natural) My understanding is that the glue won't stick to anything but natural wood. The result being popped bridges. |
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | keldon85 - 2019-11-18 3:00 PM
For Dan, thanks for the summary of results of your numerous projects. I saw the same article at the Stew-Mac site, and that layout was the primary one I was considering. The success you had with it gives me a very strong reason to basically go with that. I may leave out the bridge plate altogether though, since it is extra mass at a point of the top that is already pretty rigid, due to the bridge itself. I plan on not using screws or pins to locate the bridge, so the point that Leonard made about the plate being used to protect the top from screws is moot. From what I recall about the original top, the factory used pop rivets to locate the bridge for gluing, but they did not have a hardwood plate under the two rivets. I may possibly put a thin piece of mahogany there to provide a better mounting surface to put a Pick Up The World Model 27 thin-film piezo transducer to act as a quack-buster for the Baggs LB6x bridge pickup that I will be using.
I did think very hard several times about using A-bracing, and info from a couple of Dan's builds provides enough data to duplicate that. However, I prefer the tone of a forward shifted X-brace OM, or a Gibson Advanced Jumbo to the deep body Custom Legends that I have heard.
Here's a pic of the forward X-braces and rosewood bridge plate I did on the 1617. These are the braces I shaped from torrefied Sitka spruce. These days I use torrefied Adi spruce for the braces. If you haven't already built the top, I strongly suggest you consider using torrefied wood for both the top and braces. 
I don't ever recall hearing that the factory used pop-rivets to locate the bridge as these would have to be drilled out afterward. They do use nylon pins to locate the bridge for gluing. 
Edited by DanSavage 2019-11-18 5:27 PM
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Location: SoCal | DanSavage - 2019-11-18 8:44 AM
I forgot to add that I would avoid the Ovation VT brace patterns. In my opinion, and the opinions of others, the VT brace pattern doesn't sound all that great.
It's not that the VT braced guitars don't sound all that great, IMNHO, they suck. I've neer played one that I would buy (having owned 2 of them in the past). And yet, there are people out there who think they sound wonderful and when they play them, indeed, they do.
Listen to this. Looks like a 70's Legend, 1117. Amazing....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CRJTuJ2y18 |
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | It's one thing to hear about how a guitar sounds.
It's another to hear how a guitar sounds.
This video is of my 1619 Custom Legend that used the Stewmac forward X-brace pattern.
See: Paul Moody Playing Dan Savage's 1976 Ovation 1619-4 CL... I'm the guy over Paul's left shoulder holding the 1117. This is the guitar I later re-topped usiing torrefied Adirondack top and A-braces. The guy to the left of me is playing a Martin D-18. It's hard to hear him over my 1619 CL. The torrefied forward X-brace sounds just as good, but like it's on steroids.
Edited by DanSavage 2019-11-18 8:14 PM
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Reason for bridge plates on current O LX guitar?
