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Any chance this is #4 or #5?

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MWoody
Posted 2013-07-26 1:57 PM (#473602)
Subject: Any chance this is #4 or #5?



Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13987

Location: Upper Left USA

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ovation-guitar-Back-Project-as-is-/181181231881?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item2a2f3e3309&autorefresh=true#ht_173wt_1399

 

Or just a good place to start for a future BFLG'er...

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Old Man Arthur
Posted 2013-07-26 6:42 PM (#473610 - in reply to #473602)
Subject: Re: Any chance this is #4 or #5?



Joined:
September 2006
Posts: 10777

Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR		If it stays cheap you could create something outta that.
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DanSavage
Posted 2013-07-26 7:11 PM (#473611 - in reply to #473602)
Subject: RE: Any chance this is #4 or #5?



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2317

Location: Pueblo West, CO		Don't think it is an 1st generation bowl.

Since it's molded in a female mold it wasn't made before 1968.

Edited by DanSavage 2013-07-26 7:12 PM
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dvd
Posted 2013-07-26 7:35 PM (#473612 - in reply to #473602)
Subject: Re: Any chance this is #4 or #5?



Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 1889

Location: Central Massachusetts		So Dan, not to detour this thread, but how do they do the hand-laid bowls today?

Thanks!
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DanSavage
Posted 2013-07-27 12:36 AM (#473616 - in reply to #473612)
Subject: Re: Any chance this is #4 or #5?



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2317

Location: Pueblo West, CO

dvd - 2013-07-26 5:35 PM

So Dan, not to detour this thread, but how do they do the hand-laid bowls today?

Thanks!

As always, you must first qualify which bowls you're asking about when you say, 'hand-laid' bowls.

There are the foreign hand-laid bowls used in the VL series and the hand-laid bowls used in the custom guitars made in CT.

Naturally, Ovation is somewhat closed-mouth about the exact processes and materials used in their bowls.

I documented some of this in my thread titled, 'The History of the Bowl'.

Per 'The Book':

1968-1970
2-ply cloth bowl hand-laid over male mold. Covered with clear plastic, apply vacuum and scrape excess resin.
High-quality, but time-consuming to produce, thus very high cost.

1968-1970
2-ply cloth bowl hand-laid in a female mold.

The fiberglass cloth weave is not visible on the  inside of the 1st-Gen bowls. The cloth weave is visiible on the inside of the 2nd-Gen bowls.

Since the glass weave is visible on this bowl, it's clearly a 2nd-Gen bowl. According to 'The Book', the 2nd-Gen bowls did not perform as well as the 1st-Gen bowls.

Based upon my experience with molding fiberglass parts, this is due to the fact that when you mold parts using vacuum-bagging technique, you squeeze the excess resin out of the cloth. Laying up parts inside a female mold is much more difficult to use a vacuum-bagging technique. Thus, the amount of resin left inside the lay-up varies from part to part and from molder to molder.

Per my email correspondance with John Budny:

Me:
The ad copy for the 1627 VL says: "Ovation’s new 1627VL features a shallow “Vintage Lyrachord®” body made from the same interwoven glass and hybrid resin materials used on early Ovations from the 60’s and 70’s."

JB:
'On this model the bowls are molded overseas somewhere. They are not the same as the hand laid bowls used here for the Adamas line but are similar since they use the woven cloth layup method.'

If you view the video found at: Ovation Factory Tour, Jason Barnes says that the woven fiberglass bowls are made using an autoclave. This process is similar to the vacuum-formed bowls of the 1960s in that the excess resin is 'squeezed' out of the the cloth/resin matrix.

 So, what this tells me is that the foreign bowls use woven-cloth, but beyond that, the exact molding techniques are somewhat hazy.



Edited by DanSavage 2013-07-27 12:42 AM
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Mr. Ovation
Posted 2013-07-27 12:59 AM (#473618 - in reply to #473602)
Subject: Re: Any chance this is #4 or #5?


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7222

Location: The Great Pacific Northwest		I thought all but hand laid Adamas bowls were made in Ohio. This supported by import guitars having a Made In Usa on the bowl when the rest of the guitar is made elsewhere.
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DanSavage
Posted 2013-07-27 1:14 AM (#473619 - in reply to #473618)
Subject: Re: Any chance this is #4 or #5?



Joined:
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Posts: 2317

Location: Pueblo West, CO
mileskb - 2013-07-26 10:59 PM

I thought all but hand laid Adamas bowls were made in Ohio. This supported by import guitars having a Made In Usa on the bowl when the rest of the guitar is made elsewhere.


The Adamas bowls are hand-laid in CT. The VL-series bowls are hand-laid overseas.

The SMC bowls are molded in OH, then shipped overseas for assembly. From the video, it's clear that some SMC bowl-ed guitars are assembled in CT.
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MWoody
Posted 2013-07-27 12:27 PM (#473626 - in reply to #473602)
Subject: Re: Any chance this is #4 or #5?



Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13987

Location: Upper Left USA		Awesome Dan! Not a derail at all, exactly some of the talk I had hoped to hear.

So this would appear to be a 2nd generation with additional gobs and splatter. Possibly tossed aside unless it was due to an early BFLG owner.

I have some of the early fiberglass cloth (thanks Tal!) and if I get my shop back and the Winter goes long I'd like to build a bowl.

Either way, I did win this - which just goes to show how few dedicated Ovation BFLG Nerds there are in this world...

This bowl should kick around and hold parts and tools for a few seasons before it ends up with a Carbon/Phenolic mono-hole top on it.

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DanSavage
Posted 2013-07-27 6:26 PM (#473632 - in reply to #473626)
Subject: Re: Any chance this is #4 or #5?



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2317

Location: Pueblo West, CO
MWoody - 2013-07-27 10:27 AM
...Either way, I did win this - which just goes to show how few dedicated Ovation BFLG Nerds there are in this world...

This bowl should kick around and hold parts and tools for a few seasons before it ends up with a Carbon/Phenolic mono-hole top on it.



That's funny! Few, indeed. Mine was the first bid. :D

I was considering putting torrefied spruce top on it. In the end I decided to pass because I'd rather find a more-or-less complete box that has the neck with tuners still attached to the bowl.

One the interesting aspects of the video is they talk about how they mold the suspension ring used on the Adamas bowls.

Edited by DanSavage 2013-07-27 6:29 PM
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dvd
Posted 2013-07-27 8:45 PM (#473635 - in reply to #473602)
Subject: Re: Any chance this is #4 or #5?



Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 1889

Location: Central Massachusetts		Thanks, Dan! I guess I'm asking about the hand-laid bowls made in CT for Adamas/custom shop guitars today. Sounds like it's not entirely clear what process they are using. Or was it shown in the video?
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DanSavage
Posted 2013-07-28 12:59 AM (#473640 - in reply to #473635)
Subject: Re: Any chance this is #4 or #5?



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 2317

Location: Pueblo West, CO
dvd - 2013-07-27 6:45 PM

Thanks, Dan! I guess I'm asking about the hand-laid bowls made in CT for Adamas/custom shop guitars today. Sounds like it's not entirely clear what process they are using. Or was it shown in the video?


They didn't show the Adamas bowls being molded in the video. Ovation is pretty tight-lipped about the exact manufacturing process. They did show the final product and discussed a couple of details, such as them being hand-laid inside a mold and using an autoclave.

In reality, they aren't using any techniques or materials that aren't already in use anywhere else in the composite industry.

They lay them up using resin (probably epoxy) and woven fiberglass cloth. The glossy outside surface and dull inside surface, shows they're using female molds.

Once the part is molded, they put the mold into an autoclave. This does two things:

1) Puts the molded part under pressure to remove voids and excess resin to achieve maximum fiber to resin ratio.
2) Heats the resin/cloth matrix to speed up the curing process and raises the temperature at which the resin will soften. This doesn't really make the part any stronger, but it does make the final part more heat-resistant.

When molding composite materials, excess resin does nothing to add strength. It only adds weight. So, you always want the least amount of resin possible. Just enough to wet out the cloth without creating voids or air pockets.

Standard practice when molding parts in an autoclave is to lay sheet plastic and/or silicon membrane over the resin/cloth matrix. Vacuum is applied to the mold cavity to pull the matrix down into the contact with the mold and the assembly is placed into the autoclave.

I've laid up reinforcement molding on the inside of a fiberglass part using a vacuum-bagging technique that is similar to the process I've described above. But, instead of putting the the part into an autoclave, I let the resin cure at room temperature. Ambient atmospheric air pressure provided the pressure I needed to remove the excess resin and eliminate the voids.

The resulting part was thin and very rigid, much like the fiberglass bowls seen in the video.

The 1st-Gen bowls were hand-laid over male molds and were vacuum-bagged to remove excess resin and eliminate voids. The problem with this technique is that it's time-consuming to do. First, the resin and cloth is applied to each bowl by hand. The bag was applied to the outer surface, the vacuum is applied and the excess resin is scraped. Then, because the resin is cured at room-temperature, it takes a full 24-hours for it to fully cure. All the while the vacuum is monitored to to make sure it doesn't change during the curing process.

The final part has a smooth inner and outer surface with no visible cloth weave and is very thin and light. This results in a superior finished product, but takes a lot of time and effort.

The 2nd-Gen bowls were hand-laid inside female molds, but were not vacuum-bagged. This saves time and effort because the molder just has to lay down the resin, lay in the cloth and wet the cloth. This process is repeated for as many layers are being used. Once all the layers are applied, the mold is set aside for overnight curing.

The final part has a smooth outer surface, but the cloth weave is visible on the inside. Final thickness varies from one part to another and even from one section of the molded part to another section. This is what we're seeing in the bowl at the top of the thread.

The current process takes the best of both generations. Fairly simple and quick to mold, but produces a superior final product.

Speaking of voids in hand-laid molded parts, they did mention that when they mold the suspension rings for the Adamas, one of the things that must be done to every molded ring is to fill the air pockets/air bubbles and clean up the excess flashing after they are glued to the bowls. Ah, the joys of hand-laid parts in a production environment. (heh heh heh)

Edited by DanSavage 2013-07-28 1:08 AM
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dvd
Posted 2013-07-31 9:38 PM (#473732 - in reply to #473602)
Subject: Re: Any chance this is #4 or #5?



Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 1889

Location: Central Massachusetts		Thanks, Dan!
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