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Location: Caribou, ME | So according to the information I've read, the O models went to K-xxxx in late 1968 and then omitted the 'K' in 1972. I'm looking at a Balladeer with Klusons, model 1111-4 but with a 4 digit serial number.
How is this possible? If the model number is correct on the label, then it would have been made '72 or later, but it has a 4 digit serial number which would place it back around '68. |
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Location: Denver, CO | As I understand it, anything with a K is a reissue. An 1111 with 4-digit serial number would be a Balladeer from '67-'68? |
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Location: Caribou, ME | Maybe the info I read was incorrect but it stated from 68-72 there was a k prefix on all model numbers. If that's NOT true, then this would easily be a 68 or 69. When did they stop using Klusons? |
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Location: Texas | This is a great reference page for these type questions: Here Shows the 1111 was built between '71-'86 On another thread, the general consensus (2 of us...lol) was that back in the dawn of Ovation, they were more concerned about producing guitars, than accurate and proper serialization methods. If you look at the bowl, piezo etc, these 4 digit tags just don't accurately reflect the serialization charts, when considering the materials being used. If the tag doesn't fit, you must acquit. Here is a 71 (I assume) Legend that I briefly owned. Not only did it have a paper tag, it had an alpha numeric serial beginning with M...uhm, M isnt even listed on the chart.
Edited by jay 2013-03-05 4:29 PM
 (Legend.jpg)
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 Legend.jpg (33KB - 0 downloads)
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Location: SoCal | Missed that chart that Miles put up. Interesting.
"General Consensus". Whoever those 2 were, they were brilliant, spot on, and should be listened to.
All this stuff comes back around for discussion every few years. People ought to go back through the archives. It's a helluva a ride seeing where this board started and where it's been. Might learn something too..... |
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Location: Texas | "Whoever those 2 were, they were brilliant, spot on, and should be listened to" Damn! Can you believe it? Another general consensus! |
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Location: Denver, CO | amosmoses - 2013-03-05 3:16 PM On another thread, the general consensus (2 of us...lol) was that back in the dawn of Ovation, they were more concerned about producing guitars, than accurate and proper serialization methods. If you look at the bowl, piezo etc, these 4 digit tags just don't accurately reflect the serialization charts, when considering the materials being used. If the tag doesn't fit, you must acquit. That appears to be the most logical answer. The chart I was reading was upside down, and there were dogs barking in the background. It's amazing that for such a small company records were so poorly kept that even the brilliant minds can't keep everything straight. And don't take that negatively; shows they were focused on craftmanship and product offering, not the minutiae of documentation. Bean counters always screw things up in the long run anyway, right? The other cool thing is that we novices have a place to ask dumb questions and have dumb conversations about a subject that has been beat to death by you "old guys" and there's always someone around who will gently and kindly direct us to the truth. Ha ha! |
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Location: Texas | "records were so poorly kept" They weren’t alone. IMO, Gibson was TERRIBLE at keeping accurate serials. They used different methods of serialization and often used the same serial #’s from the through the 70’s. Fenders’ are all over the place. They are not sequential and can overlap up to 4 year years…and that cluster was still going on in the 80’s. IMO, around 71, Ovation did a pretty doggone good job, compared to the industry, in serialization. Of course, it might have been easier because they were a new company…but luckily they didn’t follow suit behind the big 2. Heck, in the 60's, with paper tags, for the most part, the guitar is consistantly appropriate with the serial chart. Yes...it does offer somewhat of a mystique to the early guitars and a chance to hash and re-hash a topic always associated with the early O's.
Edited by jay 2013-03-06 11:21 AM
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Location: Fort Worth, TX | I'm at a total dead end with dating the Glen Campbell I just picked up a few days ago. It has a silver foil label with 1127-4 and a paper label with 020088. I can't find any dating info anywhere with this. |
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Location: Fort Worth, TX | I found it! It's a 1974. |
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Location: Caribou, ME | Here is the O I am referring to. Could it be a '68?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/140925594011?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trks... |
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Location: Texas | KS Everything that I see says it is an early 1111 Balladeer, per the model chart. Neck is correct. Bridge is correct. Bowl is correct. Case can even be correct. Rosette is correct. Look Here to see a similar example of an early 1111. The K1111 had an elegant thin circle rosette, shiny bowl, 5 point bridge. The 68 deluxe balladeer had that type of Rosette, but it was inlayed, but not the same inlays on the neck...nor did it have the Klusons, along with the shiny bowl and 5pt bridge. Additionally, the early Balladeer and DB had Balladeer or Deluxe written between the tuners on the head....although on some it has faded out to where it is barely legable. The only thing that looks out of place are the tuners. It is not a good enough picture to know if they are the vintage type Klusons that Ovation used in the 60's or the vintage looking ones. The serial is interesting, but, imo, considering everything else, it is an early sticker that was placed on a transition guitar. |
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| If the serial number is correct, at least part of the guitar could be a 1968 issue. The bridge is post 1968 and the truss rod cover is post 1968. The label is from a very limited run that existed only in late 1971 or early 1972, before they went to the silver foil labels. The case is an original Ovation "chipboard" case that was the economy alternative to the hard cases.
My best educated guess is that this guitar was originally a shiny bowl with a Bloomfield label stamped "Balladeer", and a five point rosewood bridge. And, in all probablility, at some time around 1971 it was sent to the factory for repair.
The original guitars carried a "Lifetime Warranty" that generally covered just about anything, many times even top cracks. And, as the 1960's tops were prone to crack, even more than in later years, Ovation repaired a great number of guitars at no charge under warranty. They later changed this policy and did not cover top cracks under warranty.
When the guitars were repaired at the factory, one of the things that was frequently changed was the label, due to the fact that the paper on the Bloomfield labels was subject to deterioration. Thus, is is not uncommon to find 1960's guitars with one of the two transitional New Hartford paper labels, at the same time maintaining the original serial number from an earlier manufacture date.
The guitar in question, although not 100% original, appears to be an excellent guitar at a remarkable price.
Edited by bobfrith 2013-03-06 4:28 PM
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| In reviewing the pictures of the guitar in question, it could be that it is, indeed, an original 1971 or 1972 issue, with the label carrying the serial number of a guitar that was completely replaced by warranty. I mention this due to the fact that headstock overlay is not Brazilian rosewood, and almost all of the pre-1969 acoustics had a rosewood overlay. (Some of the 1968 Thunderheads had a walnut overlay, but the standard for acoustics was rosewood).
Up until the mid-1970's, when a guitar was replaced by warranty, the serial number was not changed. However, many times the label was replaced and upgraded with the old serial number.
Upon further study, I am inclined to believe that this guitar was probably entirely replaced under warranty, a new label was placed on it with the old serial number, and possibly, the original Kluson tuners were used on the new guitar, If so, the tuners and the serial number would be the only things still remaining from the original 1968 guitar.
Edited by bobfrith 2013-03-06 4:31 PM
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Location: Flahdaw | Jeez...if you REALLY want to know something about Ovations, this is the place to come for sure..... |
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Location: Texas | "Upon further study, I am inclined to believe that this guitar was probably entirely replaced under warranty, a new label was placed on it with the old serial number, and possibly, the original Kluson tuners were used on the new guitar, If so, the tuners and the serial number would be the only things still remaining from the original 1968 guitar." That is why Bob is the master! With his scenario EVERYTHING fits! Nice Ovation CSI job Bob...as usual. Your posts are always educating. |
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Location: SoCal | Bob may be entirely right. I've got an 87C which has the original label and tuners. Everything else was replaced at one time or another. Only 87C with an OP Pro..... |
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Location: New Hartford CT | I bought one of these on ebay last year for a friend for $300. It had recently gone to the factory for top repair and the frets looked after.
It was identical to this guitar except for the serial number. Walnut bridge and headstock veneer, Kluson tuners, textured bowl, model 1111-4. I couldn't figure it out at the time but simply accepted it was around a 1970...the Klusons bothered me though. I think BobF finally provided the answer
I have some pics of it on my other computer....to be concluded. |
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Location: New Hartford CT | Here it is - 1111-4 with Kluson tuners. Now that I see it again the headstock veneer may indeed be rosewood. It's a 1969 by S/N...
https://picasaweb.google.com/105567705311232066629/KeithSOvation?aut... |
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | When all else fails, you can look at the texture of the inside of the bowl.
The texture of the bowl for the guitar above shows the bowl was hand-laid inside a female mold, which only occurred between 1968 and 1970 If you compare the texture of this bowl to that in the following pics, you'll see that both were laid up using the same technique. Both have the same texture showing the weave of the fabric was not completely filled, i.e.: pinholes. https://picasaweb.google.com/105567705311232066629/KeithSOvation?authkey=Gv1sRgCN7agrK0xrnx1QE#5852677093282791282
Edited by DanSavage 2013-03-07 1:30 PM
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Location: New Hartford CT | In my pics I should have noted what an excellent job the New Hartford shop did on the repair...it looked and played beautifully. The one currently for sale may be another nice one. |
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Hair splitting O dating question
