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Location: south east Michigan | Lionel Trains (you know, the model trains), is located just down the road from us. There was was a time when the moved all production down to Mexico. After bout 3 years they ended up moving every back here.
Who knows?
I would have thought that whatever major things Fender had would have been implemented by now.
Dave has the healthy perspective. Taks come from across the wide waters and we embrace them without question.
I just don't want to see the end of an era. But I guess we've already been through that type of change when Bill left.
Logic, facts, reason, and reality say that change is likely. I can accept it and understand it. I just don't have to look forward to it. |
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Location: North Wales, UK. | No I am not kidding, why do you think they introduced the American series matey?? |
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Posts: 90
Location: los angeles | It's my understanding, and I thought the general consensus was, that the Japanese Fenders were equal, if not better, than the U.S. models that preceded them after the CBS take-over, or the models that came after.
Bob |
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Posts: 4389
Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | I think our Aussie brother is refering to the fact that the Japanese guitars were better quality than the US models.
According to what I've read the reason for the US models is that Fender recognized that it was an American company and to keep up their design chops kept high end production in the US.
Now a company like Reverend produces fine guitars only in China with inspection in the USA. I think the diffence is the quantity of sales. I'm hoping that Fender does what it did with the Fender line, and does not follow Reverend. It would make me real sad if they stopped US production. Frankly, it doesn't make sense from a "brain drain" perspective.
When Ovation was owned by Kaman you felt that thru your stock you had a voice. Can't say anything to the Fender people, and just have to trust they'll do the right thing. |
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Location: SoCal | Fender's got a pretty good track record. In 1985 the company owned the name and had overseas production to carry them for a while. Today, well, today, they're freakin' huge and make really fine product.
I'm gonna hold on tight and not worry. My only concern is Ovation's customer service department (because there are friends there and as we all know, that department does great work -- hate to loose it)...... |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Saying that this is the Fender business model that has worked for Fender for decades does not make me feel any better. When you have to do Research to find-out where your Strat was made because the Good ones are made in Mexico... This does not give me any faith in the consistency of the import product.
And Yes... Spendy Taks are made in Japan. Cheaper Taks are made somewhere else overseas.
But Quality Ovations were supposed to be made By US Workers, For US Workers. (like the Model T) I thought the Original idea was that You shouldn't have to spend thousands of dollars for a good guitar.
But I won't snivel too much... I got most of mine on Sale! :p :D :cool: |
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Posts: 15664
Location: SoCal | You know, I've never owned a car built in the U.S. I've always bought for quality. I plan to continue doing the same with my guitars..... |
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Location: Hopkinton, MA | Yet to be seen.
I just bought a Tradition guitar yesterday (used). Made in Korea and I went over it very, very carefully and am very impressed with it.
On the opposite side...I have played literally hundreds of Fender Squier Chinese Strats. Out of those hundreds, I've found one that could be played for more than 15 minutes without me wanting to throw it out into the street.
Consistancy is what is tough to come by. We'll see.
jack |
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Posts: 83
Location: North Wales, UK. | I have also played several Jap and China Fenders and owned a Tele Custom with the two Humbucker pickups on. Glad to see that one go.
I played a Jap Strat through a Fender Twin-Reverb at my local shop a few years ago and using the same settings played a USA Std Strat and nearly fell over with the difference in sound. There was £500 (then about $800) squids difference in price and I took the USA Strat home and still have it after 20+ years. The depth and mid-range in the USA one was absolutely out of this world compared to the Jap one and sounds even better today.
Nothing wrong with the build quality of the Jap Strat in fact it was very good but a lot of difference in the tone.
Give me US made anytime.
dave |
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Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | Originally posted by dave3dg:
Cast your mind back to the CBS take over of Fender and how Fender manufacturing in the US was curtailed allmost overnight. I hope this doesn't happen to Ovation as it took a long time for manufacturing to get back to the US.
They learnt their lesson eventually with obviously inferior Japanese made Fenders. Different times these now with huge differences in manufacturing costs twixt the US and the Far East.
dave That's not what happened at all. CBS-era Fender production remained in the USA almost entirely (until the early 80's when the Squier And JV's were introduced) but a little at a time the bean-counters chipped away to save a few cents here and there, so that by the mid-to-late 70's Fender quality was in the toilet and the guitars were a joke. The Japanese-produced Vintage series from the early 80's were the best of what they were doing at the time. When the Bill Shultz-led management buyout acquired the company in '85 there was minimal USA production, as essentially all they bought was the name, not the factories. For the first few years of the Shultz era Fender production was almost entirely Japanese, and in terms of quality was light years ahead what they'd been putting out at the end of the CBS era. |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | To add on to what Paul said, Fender was having a tough time dealing with all the Strat copies coming from overseas, and the fact that the quality of these overseas products was equal to the USA-made models and, ultimately, better. Rather than fight them, Fender developed a partnership with the overseas manufacturers, licensed the models, put their name on them, and generated profit. |
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Posts: 5563
Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | Paul and Brad are right on the mark...I was co-manager of a large MI store in the largest Mall in Tidewater Virgina from 1983-5..we were the largest Fender dealer in the area and were virtually w/o product for several months...the first of the newer USA Shultz group owned Fenders were so good they were impossible to keep in stock...I wish I had bought one of the USA RI 57's at the time...I did but three years later...I sold many of the Strats from Japan and they were very good...but the new USA models smoked them.... |
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Location: SoCal | The last 3 posts here are spot on. Bill Schultz was very "quality" oriented and when the U.S. resumed production, they built some good guitars, and got better as they went on.
But it's important to remember that the guitars built overseas have gotten better as well. Fender has a good idea what's it's doing..... |
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Posts: 4042
Location: Utah | Originally posted by Paul Templeman:
the bean-counters chipped away to save a few cents here and there, so that by the mid-to-late 70's Fender quality was in the toilet I think that sums it up in general. The bean counters look at the balance sheet and decide it is easier to reduce the costs than increase the revenues. But, there is no reason that the Chinese cannot build as good a product as the Americans. The problem is that they are generally not tasked to do so. Their labor costs are lower, and their regulatory compliance costs are lower. The problem is that the specs are lowered and corners are cut.
If the Chinese were well trained and then instructed to build products to the same standards as the onshore factory, they would deliver.
I really hate to see our $ and jobs being exported. I also hate to see standards lowered on a product line that we know is already superb. |
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Posts: 83
Location: North Wales, UK. | Well, you guys must know what went on at Fender better than me but I can only speak from the UK point of view at that time when the only Fender we could get were the Jap ones. Lots of Fender die-hards went away well pissed and seeked other gits.
I still stand by my view that the American series blew the Jap ones away. That is reflected in the retail prices today in the UK.
dave |
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Posts: 1118
Location: NW Washington State | Another vote for 80s Japanese Fenders and Squiers. Good quality stuff. But it's nice to see that someone in the UK likes fine American-made products! :)
-Steve W. |
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Posts: 5881
Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | I have three Fender Jaguar guitars, an original from 1962, a rarely used Japanese-built 1986, and a mint 2001 USA reissue. The '86 Japan model serves as a perfect example of the only products available from Fender immediately after the company was sold by CBS. With respect to workmanship, playability, and tone, the '86 model is every bit as good as the 2001 reissue, and in some respects better, to wit, body finish, neck and headstock finish, fret edge finish and detail, and perhaps most of all, application of the headstock decals, which is relatively insignificant as to tone and playability, but serves as an example of the Japanese builders' greater attention to detail and workmanship. |
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Posts: 2683
Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | I don't think you can go by what other companies did back in the day. Things change. What worked for one company, didn't work for another, and maybe didn't work at a later date. The economy changes. The market changes. There are a lot of VERY high quality guitars being made in China today. There are a lot of very POOR quality guitars being made in China today. I think Fender knows they have a small but fierce Ovation fan base, and I don't think they will let the quality suffer. As far as Celebs go, they really ARE great starter guitars, therefore I don't believe Fender will allow Ovations to be reduced in quality to the starter guitar level. I could be wrong, but NONE of us, including Fender knows what the future holds as far as the economy and future sales. We'll just have to wait and see. |
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Location: SoCal | +1 |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Okay... Some Ovation guitar are currently being made in KOREA (don't know nuthin bout China)...
I bought two NEW Korean-made, USA inspected Ultras... a 2171 and a 2178.
One 2171 I had to send back to the store, the second one still had problems, but there were no more Ultra's left to exchange it for.
The 2178 I sent to Woody's Ren-O-vations, and he had to rout-out the saddle pocket to make it playable.
On to the TX and AX models...
Before I ever saw an Elite TX on an online Store website, evilBay was chock-full of Factory 2nd's.
Do a quick search of cheap AX's and TX's on eBarf, and you will find many 2nd's.
Even the Korean made Elites and Balladeers that are good ain't really any cheaper than they were.
Once you knock-off the $129 you save by Not Getting A Case, the discount ain't that great.
If you are producing enough crappy Elites and Balladeers to fill a Factory 2nd reject market, I am not impressed by your quality. I have no personal experience at the MotherShip, but it seems that they tried to make the guitars right the First Time. If that didn't work, it might end-up being re-made as an FRG.
These out-source folks just toss the rejects into a pile and sell them in bulk to the 'USED' refurbish folks, and be done with it.
At least with the 'Reverend' business model, they inspected them here before they sold them.
With the current Celebrity and Applause model, that is now becoming the Elite and Balladeer model, you get what you get...
If you don't like it they will just give you another, and resell the one you rejected.
What is wrong with Pride in Workmanship? |
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Posts: 4996
Location: Phoenix AZ | We could debate this forever but the bottom line is that it is what it is and there is absolutely nothing that any of use can do to change it.
If you want to change something that matters spend more time with your kids, or your elderly parents. Volunteer at your schools, help within your community, buy a hungry person a meal.
As a consumer YOU/WE have the ultimate power. If you don't like what Ovation (or any other brand) is building, or where they're building them, then buy something else. There's a reason that there's hundreds of guitar brands to choose from. |
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Posts: 1453
Location: Texas | Well said, Gallerinski…
As for being able to produce quality guitars in Asia, I would think a lot would depend on how the workers are compensated (which is minimal to begin with.) If they lose pay for each reject, they might be inclined to produce better, or at least more consistent, quality. However, the chances are that they are paid based on how many they can crank out per hour or shift. That invites shortcuts and inevitably results in poor workmanship.
"Craftsmanship" and "Assembly-line" seem like opposite concepts to me, and it seems that "outsourced" O's would be more likely to fit into the the latter…
…my 2¢… |
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Fender moving "O" to China?
