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December 2009
Posts: 686
Location: Route 66, just east of the Cadillac Ranch | I found an old posting where Samova said the following in reference to an early Balladeer:
Originally posted by samova:
The number stamped on the heel is not actually the serial number.I have had many early balladeers and the heel stamped number almost alway never matched the serial number on the label. Topic: 1966 Kaman / Ovation - Serial Number 151
I'm certainly not questioning Sam's knowledge of the subject, but in my limited experience the number on the end of the heal has always matched the number on the label. So what is the conventional wisdom here; should the numbers match more often than not, or should they differ more often than not?
If you have an early guitar, with both a number stamped on the end of the heal and a paper label, do they match? |
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September 2002
Posts: 153
| Hi Nick,
The serial number on the paper label and the serial number stamped in the neck block should ALWAYS be the same number, as the label would have been applied after the guitar was assembled, with the neck blocked stamped and the two numbers were verified to be the same. Thus, if a guitar has the original Bloomfield label the two numbers will undoubtedly coincide, unless there was an unlikely error at the time the label was applied.
However, given the fragility of the paper on which the Bloomfield labels were printed, many original labels were damaged or lost, and the labels were subsequently replaced by the factory. It appears that many of the 1960's guitars that were sent to the factory for repairs in the 1970's were given a replacement label of that era, and sometimes the serial number on the new label is not the same as the original.
I have encountered several guitars that did not have matching serial numbers, and in almost every case there have been indications that there was factory repair work done at one time. A common scenario is a bridge that has been changed and a damaged or missing label replaced with a new one at the time of repair.
For example, I once owned Josh White, serial # 1483, and the number 1483 was stamped in the neck block. The guitar had a replacement bridge, and the label was an early 1970's label that stated the serial number as I483, instead of 1483.
So, the conclusion is that the numbers do not always coincide, but they should if the guitar is 100% original. |
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Posts: 686
Location: Route 66, just east of the Cadillac Ranch | Hey Bob,
Good to hear from you. Thanks for confirming my suspicions that they should have left the factory with matching numbers. It's funny, I thought about you when I was typing my question.
Thanks again and Happy New Year |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | what bob said |
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Posts: 686
Location: Route 66, just east of the Cadillac Ranch | Originally posted by Beal:
what bob said The Imprimatur.
Thanks Beal. |
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August 2003
Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | Ok, I have a Deluxe Balladeer, shiny bowl, etc., that is missing the label (just a little residue where the label was), correct bridge, and correct recessed rosette - I can't see anything on the neck block...any ideas? |
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August 2003
Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | By the way, was the finish in 1968-1969 the same catalyzed polyester as used in the 1970-1984 era?
If so, as I have done with other later guitars, there is a process where I can remove a couple of old finish cracks...I have explained it in the OFC's 'Ovation Guitar Reference Guide' FAQ. |
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Location: Nova Scotia, Canada | It's the same finish, Tony.
Beal mentioned there may have been a few early laquer finished examples made. I'd love to find one...those should be killer sounding guitars! |
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Posts: 153
| Hi Tony,
In all probability, your guitar was originally labeled with a serial number in the A-001 through B-500 range, on a Bloomfield label.
The serial numbers stamped in the neck block continued up until about early 1972, with the highest known serial number being the Cat Stevens 1617-4, which bore serial number 13338 on the label, and also stamped on the neck block. In 1972, the new six digit serialization began about the same time as the foil labels were introduced.
In 1968 the first variation of serialization was introduced, with a letter plus three digits (A-XXX). The Deluxe Balladeer was one of the first models that received the new serialization, and one of the characteristics of the new serialization was that the numbers were no longer stamped in the neck block. The serial numbers stamped in the neck block were limited only to numbers, not letters with numbers, therefore, the A-XXX and B-XXX serialization is limited only to the label, and not stamped in the neck block.
Incidentally, the shiny bowls with inlaid rosettes continued only until about B-500, although there may be an occasional exception to this norm. (Deluxe Balladeer, serial # B-500 has an original factory textured bowl and the add-on rosette, but, with a five-point bridge.) The five-point bridge was phased out somewhere during the C-XXX serialization, as were the Bloomfield labels. |
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Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan | Bob...
Looks like you are aware of the quirks with Ovation serial numbers.
Maybe Breadwinners are not on your radar but I'll ask anyway.
My Breadwinner is serial #906. All the others I've seen start with an "E".
Do you have any back story on these? / thanks |
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Location: SoCal | Bob & Wayne,
Thanks |
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December 2009
Posts: 686
Location: Route 66, just east of the Cadillac Ranch | Originally posted by Bluebird:
Beal mentioned there may have been a few early laquer finished examples made. I'd love to find one...those should be killer sounding guitars! I'm not sure exactly when the change was made, but they were still using a lacquer finish at #093. Anyone else have an early Balladeer later than that with a lacquer finish? I find it interesting that the tops on these early guitars appear to weather so well. Of the few that I'm aware of none of them have cracks in the tops (022, 045, 093). Beal, does #036 have any cracks in the top? How about the cracks in the headstock?
And yes Bluebird they sound pretty awesome, but I don't know how much of that is due to the finish and how much is due to the bracing, which was different on the early guitars.
Early Balladeer bracing
I also just noticed the headstock on #045 is 1/2" thick (large TRC) and on #093 it is 9/16" thick (small TRC). Both #022 and #045 have cracked headstocks. It's obviously a problem that appeared and was addressed early on. I can't help but wonder if one of the headstocks didn't snap the first time it was brought up to tune, followed by, "HALT PRODUCTION!!! Someone call Charlie, quick!" |
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Posts: 153
| Brad,
I really don't have much expertise on the serialization of solids. Hopefully Miles can help with your question. |
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Location: south east Michigan | All the same Bob, thanks. |
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January 2007
Posts: 137
Location: Massachusetts | I have a custom Balladeer model 1112-2 that I've had since the late seventies. I bought it with the bridge and rosette off the guitar, and the top had a hack job finish attempt. I cannot find a serial number anywhere on the guitar. What's up with that? |
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December 2009
Posts: 686
Location: Route 66, just east of the Cadillac Ranch | Originally posted by javaman:
I have a custom Balladeer model 1112-2 that I've had since the late seventies. I bought it with the bridge and rosette off the guitar, and the top had a hack job finish attempt. I cannot find a serial number anywhere on the guitar. What's up with that? As Bob mentioned above, "The serial numbers stamped in the neck block continued up until about early 1972." It sounds like your guitar is post-early 1972. Without the printed label there's no way to identify the serial number. I've got a 72(ish) Balladeer without a serial number, but it's one of my favorites. |
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January 2007
Posts: 137
Location: Massachusetts | Thanks for the reply,Nick. My Balladeer has become a favorite of mine, also. It's just been bugging me about not having a serial number. |
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Should the numbers on the end of the heal match the numbers on the paper label?
